Author Topic: Proofs and evidences about this universe  (Read 170 times)

Offline Hakurei Reimu

Re: Proofs and evidences about this universe
« Reply #15 on: January 04, 2018, 03:39:05 PM »
As far as https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poincaré_recurrence_theorem goes ... that says system will return to initial state.  We don't know what the initial state was, prior to the 3.5K boundary.  Not observationally.  Wouldn't that imply an oscillating universe (currently not observed) that returns to basically mostly hydrogen and some helium?  I think that is assuming ... no phase changes, no atomic or subatomic changes (aka a gas behaving classically).
No, phase changes are allowed in this, because the recurrence theorem applies to phase spaces, where every possible configuration of the universe is represented by a single point in some abstract space of obscenely large dimension, each group of six dimensions representing a single particle's coordinates in space and its momentum. (This, of course, gets much hairier in a universe where the number of particles can change, but there are ways of handling that.) A classical gas will more easily (and thus sooner) return to an initial state, but even oxygen atoms will disintegrate over very long timespans, because protons and neutrons will spontaneously tunnel out of the nucleus and become free particles again. They'll even tunnel out of black holes

Not an objection, just that it isn't terribly clear to pull some higher math out of nowhere.  Got quantum gravity?  Didn't think so.  I would agree that ... the idea that the Second Thermodynamic Law applied to the whole universe, is facile on the face of it.  So not a good way to disallow an infinitely old universe.  There is no observational evidence of that anyway.  Again, the original reason for rejecting an eternal universe was purely theological.
Well, unlike quantum gravity, we do understand the recurrence theorem and what it involves. It also gives us the possibility of an eternal, cyclic universe that is completely in line with the second law of thermodynamics. Theists have to take note that science is really of the habit of spoiling your parties. After all, scientists are far more familiar with these principles and have thought about this shit for longer than theologians, and if the simple lines of logic theists use actually worked, we would have known of that centuries ago.

It makes you wonder if your bog-standard theists are actually sincerely stupid, arrogant to the core, or know they're talking shit. I don't deny that the possibility of all three to various degrees may be the case.
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Re: Proofs and evidences about this universe
« Reply #16 on: January 04, 2018, 03:55:35 PM »
It makes you wonder if your bog-standard theists are actually sincerely stupid, arrogant to the core, or know they're talking shit. I don't deny that the possibility of all three to various degrees may be the case.
I, too, would guess maybe all three, but mostly the latter. I think many of them are not trying to convince anyone that doesn't already believe, but are merely trying to give believers the feeling that they're scientifically and logically justified in their belief, while knowing good and well that they're lying through their teeth.

As Bakunin said, "Theology is the science of the divine lie."
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