Author Topic: Proofs and evidences about this universe  (Read 169 times)

Online sweetto (OP)

Proofs and evidences about this universe
« on: December 31, 2017, 11:24:38 PM »


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Re: Proofs and evidences about this universe
« Reply #1 on: December 31, 2017, 11:27:04 PM »
Hey, sweety, you are an idiot--actually you give idiots a bad name.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Offline Baruch

Re: Proofs and evidences about this universe
« Reply #2 on: January 01, 2018, 12:35:07 AM »
We all have our limitations.  Some are more limited than others.
שלום

Offline pr126

Re: Proofs and evidences about this universe
« Reply #3 on: January 01, 2018, 12:50:26 AM »
Ultimate peace means where everyone in the world is under the Islamic rule.
“True Ignorance is not the absence of knowledge but the refusal to acquire it.” - Karl Popper

“It is easier to fool people than to convince them they have been fooled”  - Mark Twain

Re: Proofs and evidences about this universe
« Reply #4 on: January 01, 2018, 01:17:00 AM »
Wow, a five minute video about completely misunderstanding atheism.   

What made you think anyone here would be receptive to that kind of ignorance?
Winner of WitchSabrinas Best Advice Award 2012


We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real
tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. -Plato

Re: Proofs and evidences about this universe
« Reply #5 on: January 01, 2018, 01:47:33 AM »
First, the plural of "evidence" is "evidence." Second, go away.
"Birds born in a cage think flying is an illness." - Alejandro Jodorowsky

Online Munch

Re: Proofs and evidences about this universe
« Reply #6 on: January 01, 2018, 07:33:09 AM »
Wow, a five minute video about completely misunderstanding atheism.   

What made you think anyone here would be receptive to that kind of ignorance?

maybe he thinks we're easy to convert to his way of thinking.

ooh.. oooh no.. its happening.. I'm feel myself changing...



aah, thats better.

Re: Proofs and evidences about this universe
« Reply #7 on: January 02, 2018, 02:53:39 PM »


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Again with the Kalam cosmological argument. I don't have time to go throught he reasoning behind its failure, so I'll just have to post a video that does a pretty good job of it:





And another, just 'cause this guy's really cute:




God Not Found
Jesus on toast, Allah on an egg - all we need now is Moses in the orange juice and we have a crazy balanced breakfast.

Offline Baruch

Re: Proofs and evidences about this universe
« Reply #8 on: January 02, 2018, 06:21:38 PM »
Not bad physicalism argument ... as opposed to the older materialism argument.  I happen to agree, that within the limits of the physical universe, physics applies, and we keep tweaking bit by bit, what that means, technically.  But that doesn't justify Star Trek, Dr Who or Star Wars nonsense.

This is misnamed.  The original Kalam argument, was part of the original Islamic theology ... via Arabic religious revelation plus Greek philosophy, circa 800-1200 CE.  The original argument (recently studied as part of my Judeo-Arabic studies) was borrowed into Christianity, from Judaism, who borrowed it from Islam.

It was theologians who first imagined a world created ex nihilo.  This only came into science, recently.  Theologians came up with that, because the notion of an eternal universe, was contrary to their notions of Creation ... it made G-d subordinate to nature.  And in Islam they went further, that the idea that reason rules, also was an affront to the arbitrary power of G-d.  So in orthodox Islam, but not in Orthodox Christianity or Judaism, it became necessary to assert a non-material, non-eternal, finite, non-rational universe.  Materialism, eternity, infinity or reason ... were contrary to an arbitrarily powerful godhead. 

Basically the paradox of an infinite power meeting up with infinite resistance was settled in favor of infinite power.  Even cause/effect is denied in Kalam after 1200 CE.  This is called occasionalism ... that what happens one minute ago, didn't determine what happens now, but rather the past, present and future have no necessary relationship, that G-d's infinite power (the only infinity allowed) makes necessary continuity unnecessary.  People see causality, not because it is there, but because G-d wants them to see it there ... like an artist mixing paints into a rainbow, but the colors never had to be in that particular order, it was the arbitrary choice of the painter.
שלום

Offline Hakurei Reimu

Re: Proofs and evidences about this universe
« Reply #9 on: January 04, 2018, 11:18:22 AM »
Any theist argument that the universe would have run out of usable energy by now if it existed forever has to answer to the Poincaré recurrence theorem. Because the second law applies, the universe can reasonably be taken to be ergodic. But an ergodic system will have all states of the system accessible, including the initial state. Ergo, a universe in which the second law will cause an even mixing of the universe will also have a recurrence time for its initial state — the universe will once in a redonkulously long while spontaneously unmix itself and begin again as if for the first time.

Remember that the entropy we see on the macroscale is a reasonable consequence of the equipartition principle, which states that all microstates are equally likely, only that the "ordered" microstates are so much fewer than "disordered" ones that your chances of finding one are very very small. But this the definition of an ergodic system, and the recurrence theorem applies.

As so often happens, the creationist twits have it exactly backwards. Just like we have found transitional forms as actually demanded by evolutionary theory, and that creationist delusions of what constitute a transitional form would actually disprove evolution, the second law of thermodynamics actually works against them even though creationists think it's slam dunk evidence for a creator.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2018, 11:21:00 AM by Hakurei Reimu »
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Offline Baruch

Re: Proofs and evidences about this universe
« Reply #10 on: January 04, 2018, 01:22:11 PM »
As far as https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poincaré_recurrence_theorem goes ... that says system will return to initial state.  We don't know what the initial state was, prior to the 3.5K boundary.  Not observationally.  Wouldn't that imply an oscillating universe (currently not observed) that returns to basically mostly hydrogen and some helium?  I think that is assuming ... no phase changes, no atomic or subatomic changes (aka a gas behaving classically).

Not an objection, just that it isn't terribly clear to pull some higher math out of nowhere.  Got quantum gravity?  Didn't think so.  I would agree that ... the idea that the Second Thermodynamic Law applied to the whole universe, is facile on the face of it.  So not a good way to disallow an infinitely old universe.  There is no observational evidence of that anyway.  Again, the original reason for rejecting an eternal universe was purely theological.
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Re: Proofs and evidences about this universe
« Reply #11 on: January 04, 2018, 01:24:32 PM »
I thought it was purely Aristotelian.
God Not Found
Jesus on toast, Allah on an egg - all we need now is Moses in the orange juice and we have a crazy balanced breakfast.

Re: Proofs and evidences about this universe
« Reply #12 on: January 04, 2018, 01:32:05 PM »
Remember that the entropy we see on the macroscale is a reasonable consequence of the equipartition principle, which states that all microstates are equally likely, only that the "ordered" microstates are so much fewer than "disordered" ones that your chances of finding one are very very small. But this the definition of an ergodic system, and the recurrence theorem applies.


In basic english: the second law of thermodynamics doesn't obliterate the beach, it just knocks over the sand castle.

Offline Baruch

Re: Proofs and evidences about this universe
« Reply #13 on: January 04, 2018, 01:40:45 PM »
I thought it was purely Aristotelian.

Good point.  This is why Islam rejected philosophy (mostly Aristotle) because he allowed an un-moved mover ... an impersonal creator.  Aristotle didn't allow infinite regressions in time or causality.  But ultimately Muslim theologians rejected even the Aristotelian argument for a finite past ... because it reduced G-d.
שלום

Re: Proofs and evidences about this universe
« Reply #14 on: January 04, 2018, 01:48:10 PM »
And of course, anything that reduces God in any way is pure evil.
God Not Found
Jesus on toast, Allah on an egg - all we need now is Moses in the orange juice and we have a crazy balanced breakfast.