Author Topic: Atheists are mutants  (Read 2599 times)

Offline SGOS

Re: Atheists are mutants
« Reply #15 on: December 25, 2017, 01:50:35 PM »
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Am I the only one who thinks the authors have combined a couple of pieces of data and a lot of assumptions to make some spurious predictions? They don't seem to even consider how gene editing and computer technology will influence intelligence in the future.

"In that our intelligence is decreasing, I suspect civilization will go backwards, Natural selection will return and we will become more religious once more. This seems to be a rule of history.”

A rule of history? I am unfamiliar with this rule.
No, you are not the only one wondering about that.  Before I read your comment, I was pondering the same things.  They collected some data, and not a whole lot, and then started speculating about what it means, how it correlates, and lacking the necessary explanation, seemed to be making causations out of correlations. 

And the rule of history thing surprised me too.  Seems like it may have been conjured out of think air.

Offline Cavebear

Re: Atheists are mutants
« Reply #16 on: December 26, 2017, 04:27:14 AM »
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Ah, but you are The Mule, from Asimov's Foundation Trilogy.  You are here to disrupt the careful calculations of the historians of the future (it was a con, the historians were manipulating popular opinion behind the scenes).

The Mule was not a healthy individual.  He was non-threatingly small in stature in his true form.  His larger-than-life self was merely the presentation he created using his mind-powers enhanced via his instrument.  And, being sterile, he was a one-off.  The Seldon predictions went on just fine after his death.

Do you never tire of being wrong?
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline Baruch

Re: Atheists are mutants
« Reply #17 on: December 26, 2017, 09:06:43 AM »
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The Mule was not a healthy individual.  He was non-threatingly small in stature in his true form.  His larger-than-life self was merely the presentation he created using his mind-powers enhanced via his instrument.  And, being sterile, he was a one-off.  The Seldon predictions went on just fine after his death.

Do you never tire of being wrong?

Do you ever tire of preferring one fiction over another?  Of thinking that your preferred fiction is true?
שלום

Offline Cavebear

Re: Atheists are mutants
« Reply #18 on: December 26, 2017, 09:42:32 AM »
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Do you ever tire of preferring one fiction over another?  Of thinking that your preferred fiction is true?

No.  But just admit you really botched it (again) and let's go on from there.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline Baruch

Re: Atheists are mutants
« Reply #19 on: December 26, 2017, 09:44:16 AM »
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No.  But just admit you really botched it (again) and let's go on from there.

I do analogy, not exact quotation.  Easier that way.
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Offline Cavebear

Re: Atheists are mutants
« Reply #20 on: December 26, 2017, 10:06:26 AM »
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I do analogy, not exact quotation.  Easier that way.

Ah, analogies...  The last refuge of the imprecise!  Like...  (and you thought I was going to do an analogy here?)  That would be like cutting the cake before... (and you thought I would do it again), LOL!
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Re: Atheists are mutants
« Reply #21 on: December 26, 2017, 06:15:50 PM »
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Ah, but you are The Mule, from Asimov's Foundation Trilogy.  You are here to disrupt the careful calculations of the historians of the future (it was a con, the historians were manipulating popular opinion behind the scenes).
Ah, damn it! No spoiler alert!?

 :shucks:







:neener:

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"Over the course of my career as an undercover officer in the C.I.A, I saw Russian intelligence manipulate many people. I never thought I would see the day when an American president would be one of them."
Will Hurd

Offline Sal1981

Re: Atheists are mutants
« Reply #22 on: December 26, 2017, 06:24:30 PM »
I'm certainly the odd one out, everyone else in my family is religious.
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool" --- Richard P. Feynman

Re: Atheists are mutants
« Reply #23 on: December 26, 2017, 06:27:20 PM »
I guess everything alive on the planet is a mutant, one way or another. So we're in good company.
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"Over the course of my career as an undercover officer in the C.I.A, I saw Russian intelligence manipulate many people. I never thought I would see the day when an American president would be one of them."
Will Hurd

Online Hydra009

Re: Atheists are mutants
« Reply #24 on: December 26, 2017, 06:28:41 PM »
Quote
Explaining the behavior behind these results, Dutton says: “Religiousness makes you more pro-social, and you become more religious when you're stressed. Religious people would have been sexually selected for because their pro-social, moral, unstressed nature would be attractive.”
So...stress makes people more religious, but religious people are unstressed, therefore...

Quote
He predicts that, in the end, intelligence and atheism will be both undone by a gradual return to natural selection.
Didn't intelligence evolve via natural selection in the first place?   :headscratch:
« Last Edit: December 26, 2017, 06:30:12 PM by Hydra009 »

Offline Baruch

Re: Atheists are mutants
« Reply #25 on: December 26, 2017, 08:39:05 PM »
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So...stress makes people more religious, but religious people are unstressed, therefore...

Didn't intelligence evolve via natural selection in the first place?   :headscratch:

Yes, the first part is contradictory.  And the second part I don't believe ... natural selection is about sex and successful child rearing.  And I don't see much connection between those and intelligence ;-)
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Online trdsf

Re: Atheists are mutants
« Reply #26 on: December 27, 2017, 12:54:35 PM »
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Am I the only one who thinks the authors have combined a couple of pieces of data and a lot of assumptions to make some spurious predictions? They don't seem to even consider how gene editing and computer technology will influence intelligence in the future.

"In that our intelligence is decreasing, I suspect civilization will go backwards, Natural selection will return and we will become more religious once more. This seems to be a rule of history.”

A rule of history? I am unfamiliar with this rule.

Yeah, that conclusion seemed to come out of thin air.  In the first place, if/when atheism and rationality come to predominate over religion and woo, that solves the social grouping issue he's leaning on because the largest group -- even if heterogeneous -- will be the 'mutant' group of rationalists, with the analogous social constructs to support them as the religious group have in their groups.

What I really wish I could find fault with was his argument that intelligence is decreasing... alas, there's plenty of evidence to support that conjecture.
Sir Terry Pratchett, on being told about the theory that the universe is a computer simulation: "If we all get out and in again, would it start to work properly this time?"

Re: Atheists are mutants
« Reply #27 on: January 16, 2018, 11:21:26 AM »
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Am I the only one who thinks the authors have combined a couple of pieces of data and a lot of assumptions to make some spurious predictions? They don't seem to even consider how gene editing and computer technology will influence intelligence in the future.

"In that our intelligence is decreasing, I suspect civilization will go backwards, Natural selection will return and we will become more religious once more. This seems to be a rule of history.”

A rule of history? I am unfamiliar with this rule.
I actually don't disagree with the "rule," but I do disagree that it can't be broken. As it has been said, "history doesn't repeat, but it does rhyme a little"...

The problem is, stack enough slant rhymes (as history does), and you eventually end up with something completely different.

...The rule is evidenced by the continuous growth and collapse of civilisations, empires, etc. Growth -> Prosperity -> Decay. I'd suggest evolution, at least in humans, operates closely along the same lines: Growth = Reducing selective pressure; Prosperity = Increasing mutational load; Decay = Reinstating selection, removing most of the detrimental mutations.

The caveat is that history doesn't show a return to the same baseline. To the contrary, it shows the baseline changes--sometimes slightly, sometimes a lot--with each repetition.

The same cycle also applies to nonhuman species when we look at carrying capacity, population crashes, and even biologically-produced mass extinction events (e.g. oxygen catastrophe). The idea that mutations are bad and always selected against is just ascientific nonsense.

Offline Cavebear

Re: Atheists are mutants
« Reply #28 on: January 18, 2018, 06:41:14 AM »
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What I really wish I could find fault with was his argument that intelligence is decreasing... alas, there's plenty of evidence to support that conjecture.

You my be thinking of the idea that "The intelligence of the planet is finite, and the population is growing".
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline SGOS

Re: Atheists are mutants
« Reply #29 on: January 18, 2018, 08:31:54 AM »
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You my be thinking of the idea that "The intelligence of the planet is finite, and the population is growing".
Zero Sum Game

 

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