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Opinions on Misotheists

Started by ƵenKlassen, December 12, 2017, 10:45:23 AM

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Cavebear

Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on December 25, 2017, 06:37:27 PM
Psychology, plus a bit of mental health. As someone who has been clinically depressed enough to require therapy and drugs, falling into ennui and hopelessness is the last thing I need. That's the mental health part. The psychology part is what I already explained: fortune favors the prepared mind â€" yeah, I know that's not exactly what Pasteur meant by the statement, but it fits.

Plus, I want humanity to reach the stars and become decently civilized doing so, and there's really no reason why anyone should want for anything in a truly galactic civilization â€" it's a big universe, even with some aliens, and we know how to harvest a great deal of its resources with existing technology, let alone future technology. Even if I never see that day, I want that for humanity, because that's fucking awesome.

Dream big, and work towards that, because humanity never got anywhere being content with its lot. If I believed as you do that humanity will never break the cycle of savagery and be forever trapped on our little mud ball, then I will not be helping to solve those problems, but a contributor to them. That doesn't sit well with me.

I hope you are right.  If we can harvest the resources of the universe and stay ahead of our collective small-mindedness, that would be wonderful.

But I fear we can't.  Going to Mars is not like Europeans going to North American (or any of the many human migrations to more resource-rich places). 

And if we do and travel far enough, we may sadly discover that we are the less-advanced  ones someday and some civ only a few 10,000 years more advanced will knock us off like Pizarro did the Incans, only easier.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Baruch

Quote from: Cavebear on December 26, 2017, 05:01:04 AM
I hope you are right.  If we can harvest the resources of the universe and stay ahead of our collective small-mindedness, that would be wonderful.

But I fear we can't.  Going to Mars is not like Europeans going to North American (or any of the many human migrations to more resource-rich places). 

And if we do and travel far enough, we may sadly discover that we are the less-advanced  ones someday and some civ only a few 10,000 years more advanced will knock us off like Pizarro did the Incans, only easier.

What, you don't like Star Wars?  Are we Sith?
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Cavebear

Quote from: Baruch on December 26, 2017, 08:37:28 AM
What, you don't like Star Wars?  Are we Sith?

The odds of any 2 or more civs meeting in equality in space are between vanishingly-small to slim (and Slim just left town).   If we meet any other species in space, they will be like  australopithecines to us or we to them.  There won't be a Federation struggling with Klingons or Romulans.   
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Blackleaf

Quote from: Cavebear on December 26, 2017, 05:01:04 AM
I hope you are right.  If we can harvest the resources of the universe and stay ahead of our collective small-mindedness, that would be wonderful.

But I fear we can't.  Going to Mars is not like Europeans going to North American (or any of the many human migrations to more resource-rich places). 

And if we do and travel far enough, we may sadly discover that we are the less-advanced  ones someday and some civ only a few 10,000 years more advanced will knock us off like Pizarro did the Incans, only easier.

I would hope that if we meet a more advanced life form in space, they'll be above the pettiness of humans. They may see us as primitives, or perhaps as children in need of guidance. There are two ways I can conceive of a space-fairing race choosing to wipe us out. 1) They see us as a plague, and come to the conclusion that the universe is better off without us, or 2) their need for resources is growing faster than their supply, and removing us ensures their own survival. But my hopes would be that they would be peaceful beings who would share their knowledge with us, and help us improve as a species.
"Oh, wearisome condition of humanity,
Born under one law, to another bound;
Vainly begot, and yet forbidden vanity,
Created sick, commanded to be sound."
--Fulke Greville--

Unbeliever

Quote from: Baruch on December 22, 2017, 10:55:10 PM
Well that is magical thinking.
Was Neitzche using magical thinking when he said that "The Christian decision to find the world ugly and bad has made the world ugly and bad"?

I don't think so.
God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

Unbeliever

God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

Unbeliever

Quote from: Cavebear on December 26, 2017, 11:37:37 AM
The odds of any 2 or more civs meeting in equality in space are between vanishingly-small to slim (and Slim just left town).   If we meet any other species in space, they will be like  australopithecines to us or we to them.  There won't be a Federation struggling with Klingons or Romulans.   
I have a notion (pure speculation - can't even call it a hypothesis) that there may well be an absolute limit to technological advancement, since the alternative is infinite technological advancement. If so, then it's conceivable that we will eventually reach that limit, as may other civilizations, and then if we were to meet them we'd be technological equals. Depends on when we meet, I suppose. Far enough in the future and it becomes more likely.

God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

Unbeliever

#82
Quote from: Blackleaf on December 26, 2017, 04:09:33 PM
I would hope that if we meet a more advanced life form in space, they'll be above the pettiness of humans. They may see us as primitives, or perhaps as children in need of guidance. There are two ways I can conceive of a space-fairing race choosing to wipe us out. 1) They see us as a plague, and come to the conclusion that the universe is better off without us, or 2) their need for resources is growing faster than their supply, and removing us ensures their own survival. But my hopes would be that they would be peaceful beings who would share their knowledge with us, and help us improve as a species.
Competition for resources seems likely to me, which would lead to a galactic natural selection process, where "reproduction" is the colonization of planets or larger regions of space. It seems to us, now, that there's a very large resource base out there, but remember, there are many billions of years in which a species would want to survive, so what seems like an over-abundance to us will eventually dwindle to seem much less abundant - just as has happened on Earth. It may be that travel to other galaxies is possible, but that seems unlikely to me, given the great distance to even the closest galaxy to us - over 2 million light years. How could even a very advanced civilization garner enough energy to get that far? Maybe I'm not enough of a visionary to see how, but I just don't. So we, and any others, may be stuck in this one little galaxy, which will eventually get short on supplies of resources.
God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

Baruch

Quote from: Blackleaf on December 26, 2017, 04:09:33 PM
I would hope that if we meet a more advanced life form in space, they'll be above the pettiness of humans. They may see us as primitives, or perhaps as children in need of guidance. There are two ways I can conceive of a space-fairing race choosing to wipe us out. 1) They see us as a plague, and come to the conclusion that the universe is better off without us, or 2) their need for resources is growing faster than their supply, and removing us ensures their own survival. But my hopes would be that they would be peaceful beings who would share their knowledge with us, and help us improve as a species.

1. Likely
2. Unlikely ... we will have exhausted all the easy to get resources
3. You didn't number this ... that aliens are like Bernie ;-) ... zero chance of that, and if it did, Hillary would screw them
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Baruch

Quote from: Unbeliever on December 26, 2017, 04:35:59 PM
See my previous comment to Baruch.

Cavebear is a Platoist, and he thinks that The World of Forms favors Democrats ;-)
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Baruch

Quote from: Unbeliever on December 26, 2017, 04:34:19 PM
Was Neitzche using magical thinking when he said that "The Christian decision to find the world ugly and bad has made the world ugly and bad"?

I don't think so.

Being thrown to the Gentiles (Jewish Messianics) or thrown to the Pagans (Gentile Messianics) was ugly and bad.  But that then became obsolete thanks to Constantine and Theodosius.  Nietzsche was pretty neo-pagan.  But yes, people change reality, otherwise we would all be in the Stone Age.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Baruch

Quote from: Unbeliever on December 26, 2017, 04:45:58 PM
I have a notion (pure speculation - can't even call it a hypothesis) that there may well be an absolute limit to technological advancement, since the alternative is infinite technological advancement. If so, then it's conceivable that we will eventually reach that limit, as may other civilizations, and then if we were to meet them we'd be technological equals. Depends on when we meet, I suppose. Far enough in the future and it becomes more likely.

Punctuated equilibria ... you go ahead two steps, and fall back one step ... until you reach the ultimate limit.  Consider globalization.  We can only do that once.  There is only one habitable planet.  Earlier, globalization was sub-global ... like Europeans taking over the New World.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Baruch

Quote from: Unbeliever on December 26, 2017, 04:56:39 PM
Competition for resources seems likely to me, which would lead to a galactic natural selection process, where "reproduction" is the colonization of planets or larger regions of space. It seems to us, now, that there's a very large resource base out there, but remember, there are many billions of years in which a species would want to survive, so what seems like an over-abundance to us will eventually dwindle to seem much less abundant - just as has happened on Earth. It may be that travel to other galaxies is possible, but that seems unlikely to me, given the great distance to even the closest galaxy to us - over 2 million light years. How could even a very advanced civilization garner enough energy to get that far? Maybe I'm not enough of a visionary to see how, but I just don't. So we, and any others, may be stuck in this one little galaxy, which will eventually get short on supplies of resources.

The competition demographically is more than just humans.  Also more than just technical civilization.  Natural life style as found in non-human animals .. is sustainable, in a way that humans are not.  Insects ... win the contest ... not necessarily space faring insects.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

fencerider

Quote from: Blackleaf on December 26, 2017, 04:09:33 PM
I would hope that if we meet a more advanced life form in space, they'll be above the pettiness of humans. They may see us as primitives, or perhaps as children in need of guidance. There are two ways I can conceive of a space-fairing race choosing to wipe us out. 1) They see us as a plague, and come to the conclusion that the universe is better off without us, or 2) their need for resources is growing faster than their supply, and removing us ensures their own survival. But my hopes would be that they would be peaceful beings who would share their knowledge with us, and help us improve as a species.

but there is the possibility of them being so advanced that they destroy us unconsciously in the way that we step on ants or drown them watering our lawns.
"Do you believe in god?", is not a proper English sentence. Unless you believe that, "Do you believe in apple?", is a proper English sentence.

Baruch

Quote from: fencerider on December 27, 2017, 11:00:14 PM
but there is the possibility of them being so advanced that they destroy us unconsciously in the way that we step on ants or drown them watering our lawns.

I read a scifi story once where really giant robots (Optimus Prime would be tiny) landed in Arizona, and proceeded t spray for pests (humans).
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.