Author Topic: Opinions on Misotheists  (Read 5241 times)

Offline Baruch

Re: Opinions on Misotheists
« Reply #30 on: December 13, 2017, 06:22:59 AM »
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Research is good.  Make sure it is well rounded.  What I mean is, research both sides of an issue.  For example, Richard Carrier and Robert M. Price have many good books dealing with the atheist/skeptic point of view religion.  On the other side, the theist side--well, it has been quite some time since I have done serious research and cannot remember any good writers of the theist side--but I'm sure the internet will provide you with some.  And then consider who are making the most sound arguments based on logic, critical thinking and facts.

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Offline Baruch

Re: Opinions on Misotheists
« Reply #31 on: December 13, 2017, 06:24:04 AM »
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But they still believe in the supernatural--if not god then a god-like force.  I view it as the same as any other theist in that they believe in god.  I don't see the need to think there is any force outside of nature--there is no evidence for it.

Yoda teach you he will ;-)
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Re: Opinions on Misotheists
« Reply #32 on: December 14, 2017, 06:12:44 PM »
Let me put it this way - if there actually were a God, such as that depicted in the Bible, I would hate it with every fiber of my being until the end of eternity. Lucky for me no such monstrosity does exist.
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“Truth is not what you want it to be; it is what it is, and you must bend to its power or live a lie.”
Miyamoto Musashi

Re: Opinions on Misotheists
« Reply #33 on: December 14, 2017, 07:08:38 PM »
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Yoda teach you he will ;-)
Yoda did teach me--not to watch Star Wars movies.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Offline Baruch

Re: Opinions on Misotheists
« Reply #34 on: December 14, 2017, 09:13:05 PM »
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Let me put it this way - if there actually were a God, such as that depicted in the Bible, I would hate it with every fiber of my being until the end of eternity. Lucky for me no such monstrosity does exist.

Memes exist ... just not in any way you would admit to.  For you perhaps, a hammer exists, but not the idea of a hammer.  But the idea came first.  In fact, without the idea of a hammer, you can't perceive a hammer, even if you have it in your hand.  A baby doesn't have the idea, and so for a baby it is just another unintelligible object.  Sensation without perception is blind.  That is what distinguishes a one semi-random set of atoms from another semi-random set of atoms.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2017, 09:16:35 PM by Baruch »
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Offline Baruch

Re: Opinions on Misotheists
« Reply #35 on: December 14, 2017, 09:13:43 PM »
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Yoda did teach me--not to watch Star Wars movies.

Sith you are!  Nihilists come in twos!
« Last Edit: December 14, 2017, 09:17:04 PM by Baruch »
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Online Hydra009

Re: Opinions on Misotheists
« Reply #36 on: December 14, 2017, 09:22:15 PM »
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From what I remember, Stephen Hawking claimed that the universe created itself...
The definition of the universe is the sum total of everything.  By definition, nothing can be outside that to act on it.

Offline Baruch

Re: Opinions on Misotheists
« Reply #37 on: December 14, 2017, 09:26:08 PM »
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The definition of the universe is the sum total of everything.  By definition, nothing can be outside that to act on it.

Definitions that define themselves, are circular .. and are fraught with paradox.  Make your ideas as simple as possible, but not simpler.  Could it be that "universe" is meaningless?  Lots of metaphysical words are proclaimed by Positivism ... to be meaningless.  And "universe" is rather metaphysical.  It is only in the context of the universe that existence has meaning.
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Offline Cavebear

Re: Opinions on Misotheists
« Reply #38 on: December 15, 2017, 03:17:37 AM »
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The definition of the universe is the sum total of everything.  By definition, nothing can be outside that to act on it.

I've heard worse definitions.  And one surprise I had a few years ago was when someone pointed out that, while the speed of light was the limit in the universe, the universe itself had no such limitation.  I'm still struggling to comprehend inflation.  And into what.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline Baruch

Re: Opinions on Misotheists
« Reply #39 on: December 15, 2017, 05:36:22 PM »
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I've heard worse definitions.  And one surprise I had a few years ago was when someone pointed out that, while the speed of light was the limit in the universe, the universe itself had no such limitation.  I'm still struggling to comprehend inflation.  And into what.

Actually two things in GR contradict conservation of mass-energy ... the Big Bang (and Inflation) and gravitational waves.  The last couple of years, gravitational waves seem to be on firmer ground.  So basically nothing is conserved, if you consider all possibilities .. the trick is that conservation is relative to the circumstances.  In some, energy is conserved but mass is not, or mass is conserved and energy is not, or mass-energy is conserved except when it is not.  It is best not to be too hung up on Newtonian alchemy and Revelations voodoo.
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Offline Hakurei Reimu

Re: Opinions on Misotheists
« Reply #40 on: December 15, 2017, 07:01:25 PM »
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Actually two things in GR contradict conservation of mass-energy ... the Big Bang (and Inflation) and gravitational waves.
Are you speaking outside your field again?
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Re: Opinions on Misotheists
« Reply #41 on: December 16, 2017, 02:35:28 AM »
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Actually two things in GR contradict conservation of mass-energy ... the Big Bang (and Inflation) and gravitational waves.  The last couple of years, gravitational waves seem to be on firmer ground.  So basically nothing is conserved, if you consider all possibilities .. the trick is that conservation is relative to the circumstances.  In some, energy is conserved but mass is not, or mass is conserved and energy is not, or mass-energy is conserved except when it is not.  It is best not to be too hung up on Newtonian alchemy and Revelations voodoo.

Conservation of matter only applies to closed systems. I hate it when theists try to use conservation of matter as an argument against the Big Bang. Like, oh I'm sure all the experts in physics, who spend years researching things that normal people can't even begin to understand, just completely forgot about that rule! And never mind the fact that if it were impossible for matter to be created, then by extention, God logically couldn't be responsible for creating the universe. Theists don't have to play by their own rules because...he's God!
"Oh, wearisome condition of humanity,
Born under one law, to another bound;
Vainly begot, and yet forbidden vanity,
Created sick, commanded to be sound."
--Fulke Greville

Offline Baruch

Re: Opinions on Misotheists
« Reply #42 on: December 16, 2017, 10:43:03 AM »
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Conservation of matter only applies to closed systems. I hate it when theists try to use conservation of matter as an argument against the Big Bang. Like, oh I'm sure all the experts in physics, who spend years researching things that normal people can't even begin to understand, just completely forgot about that rule! And never mind the fact that if it were impossible for matter to be created, then by extention, God logically couldn't be responsible for creating the universe. Theists don't have to play by their own rules because...he's God!

Actual stuff from actual Physics grad school ... look it up.  Has nothing to do with theism.

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Yes, the people here, myself included, have PhDs and Nobels ... bwhahah

What is actually going on in GR cosmology ... the Big Bang represents a unique boundary to both space and time.  We think of it as "creation" because of our anthropomorphism (see some posters since gone).  I have never used the Big Bang as an argument for theism.  I consider it to be irrelevant.

Yes, a closed system can't lose or gain anything.  And GR gravitational wave interpretation problems are small scale ... so basically an open system.  But is the universe an open or closed system?  I defy anyone to claim they know the answer to that.  Is there even such a thing as a truly closed system?  Nothing short of the universe itself is closed, except as an approximation, and there's the rub.  There is no true/perfect thermos bottle ... everything is leaking thermal radiation to what is external to it.  And importantly, in the case of the Earth, receiving a lot of EM radiation from the outside.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2017, 10:47:38 AM by Baruch »
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Offline Hakurei Reimu

Re: Opinions on Misotheists
« Reply #43 on: December 17, 2017, 12:11:05 AM »
^If you got from Baez's article that there is no energy conservation in GR, then you are right and wrong: you are on the surface right, but wrong on a deeper level. The point of the article is not that we can get nothing from something and vice versa in GR, but that there are a lot of "gotchas" that are traps for young players. The misunderstanding stems from the fact that energy and mass in relativity (GR or SR) are not strict invariants; they depend on how you're moving relative to them. It's the energy-momentum 4-vector that is conserved. You are regarding a single component in a vector quantity, rather than a discrete quantity in and of itself, and as such it is at the mercy of the coordinate system you use, which may not have nice properties when you try to suss out energy balances in finite volumes.
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Offline Baruch

Re: Opinions on Misotheists
« Reply #44 on: December 17, 2017, 08:52:48 AM »
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^If you got from Baez's article that there is no energy conservation in GR, then you are right and wrong: you are on the surface right, but wrong on a deeper level. The point of the article is not that we can get nothing from something and vice versa in GR, but that there are a lot of "gotchas" that are traps for young players. The misunderstanding stems from the fact that energy and mass in relativity (GR or SR) are not strict invariants; they depend on how you're moving relative to them. It's the energy-momentum 4-vector that is conserved. You are regarding a single component in a vector quantity, rather than a discrete quantity in and of itself, and as such it is at the mercy of the coordinate system you use, which may not have nice properties when you try to suss out energy balances in finite volumes.

Yes, and you get it ;-)  Any energy balance in a finite volume is temporary and approximate.  The mass loss due to thermal loss from a thermos bottle is very small ... but still non-zero.  It is irrelevant to the argument to say "in X coordinate system it is this" but "in Y coordinate system it is that" .. because in no coordinate system will it be zero or negative (just the coordinate division of the 4-vector will differ).  In the case of the energy/power 4-vector, variance of it we call rest mass vs kinetic energy.
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