Author Topic: Supreme Court hears same-sex marriage cake case  (Read 154 times)

Offline pr126 (OP)

Supreme Court hears same-sex marriage cake case
« on: December 07, 2017, 01:26:07 AM »
Supreme Court hears same-sex marriage cake case
Quote
Washington (CNN)As the Supreme Court wrestled with a clash between religious freedom and LGBT rights on Tuesday, all eyes were on Justice Anthony Kennedy, who might have to reconcile two strands of his jurisprudence.

The case concerns a Colorado baker who refused to make a cake to celebrate a same-sex couple's marriage because he believes that God designed marriage to be between a man and a woman.
Lawyers for Jack Phillips relied on two parts of the First Amendment -- free exercise and free speech -- to make his case, and at times Kennedy seemed torn during the lively and sometimes rapid-fire arguments.

My question is: How far would this have gone if the baker was a Muslim and not a Christian?



“True Ignorance is not the absence of knowledge but the refusal to acquire it.” - Karl Popper

Offline SGOS

Re: Supreme Court hears same-sex marriage cake case
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2017, 05:36:54 AM »
Supreme Court hears same-sex marriage cake case
My question is: How far would this have gone if the baker was a Muslim and not a Christian?
There would be little public pressure to accommodate Islamic special privilege, but supposedly courts are above notions of public pressure.  It's great fun watching the courts.  Well, not great fun, maybe.  More like watching baseball.

Offline pr126 (OP)

Re: Supreme Court hears same-sex marriage cake case
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2017, 05:57:20 AM »
I wonder if it would have gone to court at all.  CAIR would have had a field day.
“True Ignorance is not the absence of knowledge but the refusal to acquire it.” - Karl Popper

Offline SGOS

Re: Supreme Court hears same-sex marriage cake case
« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2017, 10:33:46 AM »
I wonder if it would have gone to court at all.  CAIR would have had a field day.
If the Christians win this one, then it's also a win for Muslims with a far reaching precedent.  Not being an expert, I would say that the court cannot frame this as a Christian issue, but only as a religious issue.   Actually, it seems to me that the precedent for religious exception has already be set in the Hobby Lobby anti taxation case.  I'm expecting this case to be a loss for secular society, but not taking bets on it.

Online Baruch

Re: Supreme Court hears same-sex marriage cake case
« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2017, 12:54:03 PM »
If the Christians win this one, then it's also a win for Muslims with a far reaching precedent.  Not being an expert, I would say that the court cannot frame this as a Christian issue, but only as a religious issue.   Actually, it seems to me that the precedent for religious exception has already be set in the Hobby Lobby anti taxation case.  I'm expecting this case to be a loss for secular society, but not taking bets on it.

In which case ... expect founding of Church of Latter Day Nazis ... who won't give products or services to Jews.
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Offline Cavebear

Re: Supreme Court hears same-sex marriage cake case
« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2017, 03:38:56 AM »
I will allow a cake-maker to consider him/her self an "artist" and decide who to create a "special" cake for.  But they better not refuse service for the standard products on the shelves.

I don't really like this problem either way.  But I reluctantly accept that anyone asked to make a "one of" gets to decide whether or not to make it.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!  b 1950

Offline SGOS

Re: Supreme Court hears same-sex marriage cake case
« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2017, 06:47:23 AM »
I will allow a cake-maker to consider him/her self an "artist" and decide who to create a "special" cake for.  But they better not refuse service for the standard products on the shelves.

I don't really like this problem either way.  But I reluctantly accept that anyone asked to make a "one of" gets to decide whether or not to make it.
Refusing service provides an ego trip for the baker.  He has something that someone wants, and he can demonstrate his power over that person like a stern father.  But let's take some time to put this in perspective.  It's just a fucking cake.  OK it's got various tiers, and a little gazebo on top with a couple of plastic doll figures in it, so it's actually 5 cakes and a couple of toy figures, but a good baker can make 50 cakes every day.  And the weird thing is that without the cake, he has no power over another person.  Every bit of his delusionary superiority is based on a cake, involving perhaps $20 dollars worth of ingredients.

It's petty and childish.  A minority wannabe trying to impose its will on an actual minority.  The courts will come up with a ruling, and the issue will later come back to the court disguised as a different issue, but it will be the same old issue.

Online Baruch

Re: Supreme Court hears same-sex marriage cake case
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2017, 09:56:11 AM »
And every time the issue comes back to court in a new form, the lawyers ... k-ching!
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Re: Supreme Court hears same-sex marriage cake case
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2017, 03:14:33 AM »
the lawyers make money coming and going...

It should be an issue protected by the first ammendment. Plain and simple: every American has a right to choose their own religion => as long as there are any religions existing that either like gay people or dont say anything ( Budhism?), the store owner would be abusing someone else’s right to choose their religion when refusing to serve them.

Screw Hobby Lobby and the trash truck they fell off of
not expecting god to show up, but if he does we’re going to have to beat the prick up.

Re: Supreme Court hears same-sex marriage cake case
« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2017, 06:01:55 AM »
In which case ... expect founding of Church of Latter Day Nazis ... who won't give products or services to Jews.
You may mean that as a joke but its really not that far from the truth.
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http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/clickToGive/ars/home

Online Baruch

Re: Supreme Court hears same-sex marriage cake case
« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2017, 09:30:03 AM »
You may mean that as a joke but its really not that far from the truth.

Back in the day ...

If Italian bankers wanted to be repaired, the royalty fined them.  If Jewish bankers wanted to be repaid, the royalty murdered them.  Depends on popularity.  Royalty sucks, and so does popularity.  Don't take a loan, unless you can pay it back.
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Offline Cavebear

Re: Supreme Court hears same-sex marriage cake case
« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2017, 02:18:48 AM »
Refusing service provides an ego trip for the baker.  He has something that someone wants, and he can demonstrate his power over that person like a stern father.  But let's take some time to put this in perspective.  It's just a fucking cake.  OK it's got various tiers, and a little gazebo on top with a couple of plastic doll figures in it, so it's actually 5 cakes and a couple of toy figures, but a good baker can make 50 cakes every day.  And the weird thing is that without the cake, he has no power over another person.  Every bit of his delusionary superiority is based on a cake, involving perhaps $20 dollars worth of ingredients.

It's petty and childish.  A minority wannabe trying to impose its will on an actual minority.  The courts will come up with a ruling, and the issue will later come back to the court disguised as a different issue, but it will be the same old issue.

As I said, I hate this question.  If it is about cakes on the shelves, service cannot be denied and shouldn't be.  But if individual design is involved, the baker is an "artist" and has some right of choice.

I'll err on the side of individual rights for the "artist" knowing I am reluctantly siding against the gay couple who also have rights.

As odd as this sounds, I think the legal decision will be that there are other "artists" willing to make their cake.  The Supreme court lives to balance on the point of a needle...

There is no good decision in this one.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!  b 1950