Author Topic: Why the horseshoe theory works  (Read 181 times)

Online Munch (OP)

Why the horseshoe theory works
« on: December 06, 2017, 11:13:07 AM »
I was watching the latest computing forever video, and he had some surprising things to say in it.



To summarize he talks about the group Britain first and its true agenda, that its an far right group with some insane rules behind it relating to Christianity. He brings up the fact of it being once more the other side of the horseshoe, that in response to far leftist groups, it helps to form far right groups like these.
I consider myself to be center left, or on the horseshoe spectrum nearer to top.



based on that, because I like to believe in a more balanced system of rules on a political spectrum, but due to that I've realized I can end up having more in common with people on the moderate right then I do with people on the extreme left, since its closer to a more rational and agreeable standard. I'm never going to be neutral, I often even tilter back and forth on the upper end of the horseshoe in regards to some rules.

The problem with the far left and right is how far apart they are, that no rational or reasonable talk can ever occur, yet, as pointed out in the video, it turns out these kind of groups, the lefts being antifa, the right being groups like this, they share similar methods of how to do things, and due to the gap will not listen to the other, but rather yell across the space between.

I often think society would just be a better place if most people floated at the top of the horseshoe on either right or left. I know this isn't going to be a popular opinion here, but its one that I think people often need to look at themselves and walk a mile in someone elses shoes.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2017, 11:20:04 AM by Munch »

Offline Cavebear

Re: Why the horseshoe theory works
« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2017, 03:50:14 AM »
I was watching the latest computing forever video, and he had some surprising things to say in it.



To summarize he talks about the group Britain first and its true agenda, that its an far right group with some insane rules behind it relating to Christianity. He brings up the fact of it being once more the other side of the horseshoe, that in response to far leftist groups, it helps to form far right groups like these.
I consider myself to be center left, or on the horseshoe spectrum nearer to top.

(Image removed from quote.)

based on that, because I like to believe in a more balanced system of rules on a political spectrum, but due to that I've realized I can end up having more in common with people on the moderate right then I do with people on the extreme left, since its closer to a more rational and agreeable standard. I'm never going to be neutral, I often even tilter back and forth on the upper end of the horseshoe in regards to some rules.

The problem with the far left and right is how far apart they are, that no rational or reasonable talk can ever occur, yet, as pointed out in the video, it turns out these kind of groups, the lefts being antifa, the right being groups like this, they share similar methods of how to do things, and due to the gap will not listen to the other, but rather yell across the space between.

I often think society would just be a better place if most people floated at the top of the horseshoe on either right or left. I know this isn't going to be a popular opinion here, but its one that I think people often need to look at themselves and walk a mile in someone elses shoes.

Moderates on either side will always have more in common than with the extremists.

EXCEPT in methods of taking control.  If Hitler and Stalin could have ever met over drinks, I think they would have understood each other completely...
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!  b 1950

Online Baruch

Re: Why the horseshoe theory works
« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2017, 05:26:59 AM »
Hitler and Churchill almost met over drinks, in like 1932.  And yes, they would have understood each other completely ;-(
שלום

Offline Cavebear

Re: Why the horseshoe theory works
« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2017, 05:55:37 AM »
Hitler and Churchill almost met over drinks, in like 1932.  And yes, they would have understood each other completely ;-(

Hmm, "understanding" would have meant something different between those two...
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!  b 1950

Online Baruch

Re: Why the horseshoe theory works
« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2017, 09:49:27 AM »
Hmm, "understanding" would have meant something different between those two...

You underestimate the gangster, Churchill.
שלום

Re: Why the horseshoe theory works
« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2017, 11:03:02 AM »
Reminds me of the logic of comic books, that the rise of superheroes leads to the rise of supervillains. Perhaps that is the case. The more reason and science starts to take over, the more pushback the ignorant, religious right gives.
"Birds born in a cage think flying is an illness." - Alejandro Jodorowsky

Re: Why the horseshoe theory works
« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2017, 12:45:45 PM »
based on that, because I like to believe in a more balanced system of rules on a political spectrum, but due to that I've realized I can end up having more in common with people on the moderate right then I do with people on the extreme left, since its closer to a more rational and agreeable standard.
I somewhat agree.  Perhaps this is a problem largely confined to America, but my perception is that it's very difficult for people on the Right and Left to come to any sort of consensus.

Over the past half-century or so (coincidentally coinciding with the Republican Southern Strategy), the two factions have drifted apart to the point that we now have precious little in common.  Even our sources of information are radically different.  I get my news from Reuters and ABC/CBS/NBC/NPR and they get their news from Fox News, Breitbart, and Daily Caller.  I consider Obama a likable but flawed President and they consider him a satanic ISIS-loving Kenyan commie.  There simply isn't a lot of room for common ground.

Pick an issue and I almost guarantee we have not only polar opposite opinions on it, but also our perception of the problem is totally different.

Global warming?  May or may not be a UN/Chinese hoax, but not a pressing issue VS real and requires immediate action.
Abortion?  Legalized infanticide VS a woman's right to choose
Church and State?  Christian nation VS secularism
Gay marriage?  Government endorsement of sin and sodomy VS equal rights
Even with stuff that you'd think would be 100% bipartisan, we often hold radically different views: renewable energy, space exploration, vaccination, and net neutrality.

Maybe it's just me.  Maybe there are lots of more reasonable Republicans out there.  Either I don't bump into them or I don't recognize them as Republicans.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2017, 01:00:47 PM by Hydra009 »

Re: Why the horseshoe theory works
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2017, 12:47:36 PM »
Also, I'd like to point out that political extremism is a subjective concept.  In the US, universal healthcare is sometimes viewed as an extreme position.  Yet it's hardly an extreme position in other Western countries.

Online Baruch

Re: Why the horseshoe theory works
« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2017, 02:36:04 PM »
I somewhat agree.  Perhaps this is a problem largely confined to America, but my perception is that it's very difficult for people on the Right and Left to come to any sort of consensus.

Over the past half-century or so (coincidentally coinciding with the Republican Southern Strategy), the two factions have drifted apart to the point that we now have precious little in common.  Even our sources of information are radically different.  I get my news from Reuters and ABC/CBS/NBC/NPR and they get their news from Fox News, Breitbart, and Daily Caller.  I consider Obama a likable but flawed President and they consider him a satanic ISIS-loving Kenyan commie.  There simply isn't a lot of room for common ground.

Pick an issue and I almost guarantee we have not only polar opposite opinions on it, but also our perception of the problem is totally different.

Global warming?  May or may not be a UN/Chinese hoax, but not a pressing issue VS real and requires immediate action.
Abortion?  Legalized infanticide VS a woman's right to choose
Church and State?  Christian nation VS secularism
Gay marriage?  Government endorsement of sin and sodomy VS equal rights
Even with stuff that you'd think would be 100% bipartisan, we often hold radically different views: renewable energy, space exploration, vaccination, and net neutrality.

Maybe it's just me.  Maybe there are lots of more reasonable Republicans out there.  Either I don't bump into them or I don't recognize them as Republicans.

One third of the electorate is neither D nor R ... but we have no party of our own.  Maybe the Millennials will change that.  A divided electorate serves the interests of the Elite and the Deep State.  A consensus might not go with "the Narrative" ... and that would lead to revolution in the US or the EU.

Liberals think that what happened from 1965 until 2000 was a done deal.  And are expecting in the 21st century to advance into technical socialist utopia.  The Conservatives beg to differ ... they see it as temporary backsliding, wanting to get the world back to 1960.  Both are wrong.  Resolution of the division, would involve the dwindling of the wings, of the D and R party in favor of more centrist parties.  Neither the R nor the D party (as of 2016) can be part of the solution.  They both have to go.  How about resurrecting the British terms ... Tory and Labor.  I could vote for an actual Labor party.  The D party, except for the controlled poodle Bernie-bro wing has no Labor in it.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2017, 02:43:05 PM by Baruch »
שלום

Online Baruch

Re: Why the horseshoe theory works
« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2017, 02:40:30 PM »
Also, I'd like to point out that political extremism is a subjective concept.  In the US, universal healthcare is sometimes viewed as an extreme position.  Yet it's hardly an extreme position in other Western countries.

Of course ideology is subjective.  And strong ideology is not reality based.  The US isn't Sweden or even Canada.  We aren't alike at all.  The US is more like China right now, with a single totalitarian party with two heads instead of one head.  If you want to follow the Queen, then move to England.  Every country has positives and negatives, don't think they are all negatives on one hand, or all positives on the other.

If you want free health care in the US ... then raise taxes to 80% on all income say past $20K.  And seize all the assets of the plutocracy that came about because of corruption over the last 40 years.  Unfortunately, then health care costs, flush with money, will continue to spiral out of control.  Of course that can be fought by nationalizing health care ... all doctors to be government employees.  See, if you just have enough government control of every aspect of your life, you can have free health care.  But it isn't free, you are paying in non-monetary terms.  Building the USSA isn't all fun and games.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2017, 02:44:17 PM by Baruch »
שלום

Re: Why the horseshoe theory works
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2017, 03:54:48 PM »
Baruch Cant become a plutocrat without stealing from some one. I see nothing wrong with taking everything away from them... including their skin

The only reason the health care system is flush with money is because we are putting up with them being overpaid (the owners, not the doctors)

If you are making 20K/year close to Los Angeles you are living in abject poverty. Avg price of rent around here has gone up to $700-$900/ month for a room, $1300-1500 for a 1bd apartment.

Hydra I like your short list. That’s a whole thread by itself.

Christian vs secular: I suppose you could explain that all day to the citizens of the south, but they will never understand that USA has never been a Christian nation.

Global warming real vs Global warming made up: If you live in the south where every day the sky is bright blue and the grass is green and the trees are full of water its hard to believe its real. Of course if you live in Phoenix where its freakin hot and everything is brown and dried out or in Los Angeles where the sky is grey and every thing is dry its easy to believe.

As far as climate emergency is concerned you go outside in Biloxi the idea is a joke. In Los Angeles the idea that its an emergency seems like its serious. 🤔 Oops we are comparing apples and oranges. Los Angeles does have serious problems but they are not just caused by global warming.😏 Some are caused by its location. The city is located on a narrow strip of land between the mountains and the ocean. I dont remember the details but the interaction between the air of the mountains and the ocean makes a big blanket every spring over L.A.. This blanket traps all the pollution making it hot and nasty all summer until it breaks apart mid Sept.
not expecting god to show up, but if he does we’re going to have to beat the prick up.

Re: Why the horseshoe theory works
« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2017, 11:01:51 PM »
Hydra I like your short list. That’s a whole thread by itself.
That was just off the top of my head.  Basically, an issue pops up, one side supports it and one side supports it and we fight to the death.  And nothing really gets resolved, it just doesn't make the news as much.

If tomorrow, the GOP put out ads attacking the theory of gravity, it'd be a divisive issue in America from that day forward.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2017, 11:04:24 PM by Hydra009 »

Online Shiranu

Re: Why the horseshoe theory works
« Reply #12 on: December 10, 2017, 12:04:41 AM »
Hydra kinda hinted at something that is my fundamental problem with this theory, which I think is actually (mostly) accurate...

In the United States, the "far right" are Neo-Nazis, the KKK/white supremacists, Republicans who want to take away all social welfare to line the pockets of the aristocracy, and theocrats (anti-abortion, anti-LGBT rights, etc.). They make up a sizable portion of the population, with large political power, particularly the last two groups mentioned.

The "far left" in America is people who strongly believe in health and social welfare for all citizens, equality for the LGBT+ community, restricting corporate exploitation of the population, and people who are in favour of environmental protection.

There are two main problems with the horseshoe theory that I see; it implies that believing that all Americans, because of our definition of what is "far" left, deserve social welfare is the moral opposite of people who think we should strip all social welfare to line the pockets of the aristocrats, or that being in favour of the LGBT+ community is morally equitable to being in favour of denying LGBT+ members any rights, and so on. This gives far right ideas like that a shred of legitimacy by trying to place them on an equal playing field when bigotry and denying hundreds of millions of people a fair chance at life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness simply do not have an moral justification.

Secondly, it implies that there will be an equal movement pushing back, when that is simply not the case; if we put the moral equivalent of Neo-Nazis/White Supremacists/Republicans who exploit the people for the aristocracy.... if we put those groups up and stood them side-by-side with their counterparts on the left, you would have a ratio that is something like 1000-1. Actual far left groups just simply don't exist in any real force in the American public, much less the American government... the same cannot be said about the far right.

I appreciate the concept of the horseshoe theory, and I think in a more educated and moderate world it is actually a very valid theory, but at least in America we are far too far from that "utopia" balance for the horseshoe to make any sense. For example, I would probably be considered "far left" by American standards; I ask, do you really think I am morally equivalent to Neo-Nazis, the KKK, and theocrats?
Om Mani Padme Hum

Online Baruch

Re: Why the horseshoe theory works
« Reply #13 on: December 10, 2017, 12:54:13 AM »
Baruch Cant become a plutocrat without stealing from some one. I see nothing wrong with taking everything away from them... including their skin

The only reason the health care system is flush with money is because we are putting up with them being overpaid (the owners, not the doctors)

If you are making 20K/year close to Los Angeles you are living in abject poverty. Avg price of rent around here has gone up to $700-$900/ month for a room, $1300-1500 for a 1bd apartment.

Hydra I like your short list. That’s a whole thread by itself.

Christian vs secular: I suppose you could explain that all day to the citizens of the south, but they will never understand that USA has never been a Christian nation.

Global warming real vs Global warming made up: If you live in the south where every day the sky is bright blue and the grass is green and the trees are full of water its hard to believe its real. Of course if you live in Phoenix where its freakin hot and everything is brown and dried out or in Los Angeles where the sky is grey and every thing is dry its easy to believe.

As far as climate emergency is concerned you go outside in Biloxi the idea is a joke. In Los Angeles the idea that its an emergency seems like its serious. 🤔 Oops we are comparing apples and oranges. Los Angeles does have serious problems but they are not just caused by global warming.😏 Some are caused by its location. The city is located on a narrow strip of land between the mountains and the ocean. I dont remember the details but the interaction between the air of the mountains and the ocean makes a big blanket every spring over L.A.. This blanket traps all the pollution making it hot and nasty all summer until it breaks apart mid Sept.

Well that pretty much labels you a Marxist, or Socialist, or Communist.  Revolutionary-R-Us ... but where are those French revolutionaries now?  The Russian revolutionaries?  The Chinese revolutionaries?  Cuba has free health care.  You can have it, if you agree to be poor enough and controlled enough.  Easy ... just move your ass to Cuba.

Shiranu = life is unfair.  You will understand this when you get older.  But in the mean time, rage at the machine like it is Berkeley CA, 1965.  We need young people like you.  Be anti-war.  But this time skip the drugs and free sex ... please.

Whether you are status quo majority or revolutionary minority, we are all useful idiots.  The plutocracy keeps on trucking.  But we need both kinds of people.  But a future where life is fair, where everyone is a healthy millionaire with a great life partner and wonderful kids (or pets) ... ain't gonna happen.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2017, 01:00:45 AM by Baruch »
שלום

Offline Cavebear

Re: Why the horseshoe theory works
« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2017, 02:27:43 AM »
Reminds me of the logic of comic books, that the rise of superheroes leads to the rise of supervillains. Perhaps that is the case. The more reason and science starts to take over, the more pushback the ignorant, religious right gives.

I always thought it was the other way around.  That villains cause heroes to emerge.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!  b 1950