Author Topic: Should not vaccinating your child be a criminal offence?  (Read 411 times)

Offline Coveny (OP)

Re: Should not vaccinating your child be a criminal offence?
« Reply #15 on: November 30, 2017, 09:02:57 PM »
Whether you believe vaccinations are good are bad, and indeed what they are - good or bad - is actually completely irrelevant to this topic, believe it or not.

What is relevant is this: Forcing a foreign substance into ones body without their consent, and making it a criminal offense to resist, is a violation of human rights. That's it.

Yes this does fall into bodily autonomy. I mean we even protect dead people's right not to have anything put in or taken out of their bodies after their death without their consent.
Developing ForDebating.com that I hope to populate with intelligent critical thinkers. You can follow updates at https://www.facebook.com/fordebating or subscribe to us at for tutorial videos.

Offline Baruch

Re: Should not vaccinating your child be a criminal offence?
« Reply #16 on: November 30, 2017, 10:51:00 PM »
Whether you believe vaccinations are good are bad, and indeed what they are - good or bad - is actually completely irrelevant to this topic, believe it or not.

What is relevant is this: Forcing a foreign substance into ones body without their consent, and making it a criminal offense to resist, is a violation of human rights. That's it.

In general, the law has decided that, the government, proper constituted, can do anything it wants.  What it wants is only questionable, if the policy or execution is improperly constituted.  So basically, tyranny of the majority, in a democracy, and tyranny of a minority, in an oligarchy.

Coveny - "No they are a victim of their own effectiveness." ... that shows great insight.  Unfortunately, in the case of antibiotics, their effectiveness is making the bugs stronger, stronger than our best antibiotics.  I would hope that won't happen with immunizations.

But the consent of the dead ... actually applies, to the relatives or whoever has possession of the body.  But society requires proper disposal, a custodian of a body, can't do whatever they want.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2017, 10:55:46 PM by Baruch »
שלום

Re: Should not vaccinating your child be a criminal offence?
« Reply #17 on: December 01, 2017, 10:57:59 AM »
Whether you believe vaccinations are good are bad, and indeed what they are - good or bad - is actually completely irrelevant to this topic, believe it or not.

What is relevant is this: Forcing a foreign substance into ones body without their consent, and making it a criminal offense to resist, is a violation of human rights. That's it.

This isn't about an adult choosing for themselves whether or not to get a vaccine. It's about adults making those decisions for their children. Whatever stupid reasons someone might have to avoid getting immunizations, their children should have the right to necessary health care.
"Birds born in a cage think flying is an illness." - Alejandro Jodorowsky

Re: Should not vaccinating your child be a criminal offence?
« Reply #18 on: December 01, 2017, 11:11:15 AM »
That's a strong position to take on the matter...

And I believe the law should take a strong position on the matter. Religion and superstition are not legitimate reasons to deny children medical care. Imagine a child has a life threatening illness, and the only way to save them is with surgery. But because the parents of the child are Mormon, and Mormons believe taking blood transfusions is a sin, they tell the doctors not to give the child any blood, even though doing so increases the chances of the child dying in surgery a thousand times. Should the parent have the right to make that call? Of course not. The doctors should use whatever means necessary to keep the child alive and healthy.
"Birds born in a cage think flying is an illness." - Alejandro Jodorowsky

Offline Baruch

Re: Should not vaccinating your child be a criminal offence?
« Reply #19 on: December 01, 2017, 01:02:48 PM »
This isn't about an adult choosing for themselves whether or not to get a vaccine. It's about adults making those decisions for their children. Whatever stupid reasons someone might have to avoid getting immunizations, their children should have the right to necessary health care.

Fine ... if you mean necessary immunizations.  Not fine if you mean free healthcare in general.  In fact, the immunizations should be free, as a public health service.  I think they were back when I was a kid, and they gave out immunizations at school, by the school nurse etc.
שלום

Re: Should not vaccinating your child be a criminal offence?
« Reply #20 on: December 01, 2017, 02:46:48 PM »
but their effectiveness means that the risk is much lower to be exposed and therefore need the vaccine is lower as well.
I don't think you understand how vaccines work.

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Laws about seatbelts statistically save lives, but this is forcing people to do things against their will for society and their own “good”. How can we call it freedom if we don’t have the choice to make bad decisions? Freedom isn’t defined by a Stepford wife following along because she’s programed to, freedom is defined by doing things like drinking, smoking, gambling, etc that many disagree with. Where is the line in the sand on freedom?
If the lack of a seat belt during a car accident causes you to become a cripple and therefore unable to work, my tax dollars end up supporting you for the rest of your life. I think that gives me some say in the matter of whether or not people should have to wear seat belts.


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Many public schools require immunization of children or they won’t accept them. These people are paying their taxes for services they cannot use.
They can absolutely use the services they pay for. But they MUST adhere to the rules in order to use those services. I like to read books and I like to be naked when I do it. Do you want naked men walking around in front of your daughter at the public library? No? Well that's why there are rules that one needs to adhere to in order to use the services.

Also if we're going to talk about giving people tax breaks because we won't allow their festering disease riddled children in the public schools, shouldn't we also talk about giving tax breaks to all those who don't have school aged children or who don't have children at all?




 
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And if it’s based more on the danger the unimmunized child presents what’s the liability?
Again, I don't think you have a complete understanding of how vaccines work.



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Is it moral to punish a parent for doing what they believe will help even if the end result hurts their child?
Not really a valid question. I'm pretty sure if you look hard enough, you could find a parent who believes it helps the child every time they have sex with the child. And I think most of us would agree its perfectly moral to punish that parent.
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false and by the rulers as useful

Re: Should not vaccinating your child be a criminal offence?
« Reply #21 on: December 01, 2017, 09:49:09 PM »
No they are a victim of their own effectiveness.
It's true that the vaccination programs have been so effective that newer generations take it for granted and incorrectly surmise that they're no longer needed.

But the part I consider to be misinformation is that communicable disease risks are lower therefore there's less need to vaccinate.  DEAD WRONG.  That's like throwing away your box of condoms because AIDS is less of a threat.  Few things are more dangerous than a false sense of security.

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An unvaccinated person doesn't touch your nose, they just make it easier for bugs to do it. So that saying does not apply.
So causing harm is okay if it's through indirect means?  What a strange position.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2017, 09:50:56 PM by Hydra009 »

Offline Coveny (OP)

Re: Should not vaccinating your child be a criminal offence?
« Reply #22 on: December 01, 2017, 11:54:48 PM »
I don't think you understand how vaccines work.

Again, I don't think you have a complete understanding of how vaccines work.

Vaccines put an inert/dead version of the the disease in your body so your immune system gets the blue print. This can take several doses to teach your body to effectively identify them, but even then they are around 95% effective so the more people who have been vaccinated the less likely that an out break will happen. The difference between our current coverage of 92% and 92% is very low risk and that's roughly 3 million people. Do you need me to further explain to pass your "understanding" tests?
Developing ForDebating.com that I hope to populate with intelligent critical thinkers. You can follow updates at https://www.facebook.com/fordebating or subscribe to us at for tutorial videos.

Offline Coveny (OP)

Re: Should not vaccinating your child be a criminal offence?
« Reply #23 on: December 01, 2017, 11:57:26 PM »
It's true that the vaccination programs have been so effective that newer generations take it for granted and incorrectly surmise that they're no longer needed.

But the part I consider to be misinformation is that communicable disease risks are lower therefore there's less need to vaccinate.  DEAD WRONG.  That's like throwing away your box of condoms because AIDS is less of a threat.  Few things are more dangerous than a false sense of security.
So causing harm is okay if it's through indirect means?  What a strange position.

It's a strawman to say my position is "they're no longer needed".

It doesn't work that way. The difference between 92% coverage and 91% coverage is low. - https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/immunize.htm
Developing ForDebating.com that I hope to populate with intelligent critical thinkers. You can follow updates at https://www.facebook.com/fordebating or subscribe to us at for tutorial videos.

Online Cavebear

Re: Should not vaccinating your child be a criminal offence?
« Reply #24 on: December 02, 2017, 02:30:37 AM »
Not vaccinating children who are not at serious risk from a particular vaccination is a social crime.  It threatens us all.  I easily acknowledge the rare instances where one child should not be vaccinated for some particular disease, but that is a rare situation that will not threaten group immunity. 

But fake concerns about autism (long disproven) are not a legitimate reason for not vaccinating children.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!  b 1950

Offline trdsf

Re: Should not vaccinating your child be a criminal offence?
« Reply #25 on: December 02, 2017, 06:15:40 PM »
Many public schools require immunization of children or they won’t accept them. These people are paying their taxes for services they cannot use. Should they get a tax break? Is that fair? Is it ethical to take away services paid for simply because you don’t agree with the way the person using it acts? And if it’s based more on the danger the unimmunized child presents what’s the liability?
Two problems here.  The first is that they are not paying taxes for services they cannot use, they are paying taxes for services they are perfectly capable of using if they follow the same rules that apply to everyone else using them.  They aren't barred, they are making bad decisions and barring themselves.

The second problem is what I can only describe as a fundamental misunderstanding of how taxation works.

My taxes pay in part for the interstates that I as a non-driver don't use.  My taxes pay in part for the public and (unfortunately) publicly-funded charter schools, and I have never fathered any children.  My taxes pay in part for women's shelters that I will never use.  My taxes pay in part for various faith-based initiatives that receive support at the state and federal level, to which I strongly object.  My taxes pay in part for the fire department, and I certainly hope to never use their services.

However, I know there are people out there whose taxes pay in part for the maintenance of the bike trails that I use every day to get to work, who have never used them.  I work at county children services -- people who have no children, and people who do but will never need our office's services pay taxes that pay in part for my job.

This is the great problem in libertarian and neo-libertarian thinking: that you only should have to pay for what you yourself use, and the necessary corollary to that is that no one else has any responsibility to help provide for the services that you yourself need.

If you only want to pay for the public services that you use, then you're not going to get public services at all because you're never going to find a large enough pool of people who all agree on both the same services and the level of services to provide.  Remember, for services to exist, there has to be an infrastructure in place to make them available when they're needed.  They can't exist in a zero-cost state of limbo until explicitly needed.

This is the point of pooled resources, and shared supports, even when there's no personal need for them.  Remember, there are indirect benefits.  I don't use interstates, but their existence means the Kroger's up the bike trail is stocked with fresh produce.  By the same token, parents who don't send their children to a public school still benefit from living in a society in which there is a basic level of education -- certainly if they're anti-vaxxers, they will need medical attention sooner or later, and that's going to require several people who did go to school, and (statistically) many of them will have gone to publicly-funded schools.  Even if they don't need medical services now, the children who are in the public schools now are going to provide the doctors that will care for them in their old age.

So taxation isn't an imposition.  It's your cover charge for living in a modern civil society.

Should we charge anti-vaxxer parents with assault or murder if they cause an outbreak? They generally live in communities, is the whole community to blame? How do we decide (if we agree there should be punishment) who and how much is justified? And what about their own children?
In order:
- yes, assuming it's an outbreak of something typically vaccinated against and it can be traced back to their child as patient zero
- no, only the ones who also don't vaccinate
- the who is whoever made the decision not to vaccinate and the how much, I'd say depending on the consequences, anything from a fine refundable upon proper vaccination of the victimized children to jail time in case of a preventable outbreak
- their own children are not legally culpable for their parents' decisions, in the vast majority of cases (there are always exceptions...)
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning." -- Calvin and Hobbes
"I thought I committed regicide today, but I committed deicide!" -- Sadie Doyle, Beyond Belief

Re: Should not vaccinating your child be a criminal offence?
« Reply #26 on: December 03, 2017, 12:58:59 AM »
This isn't about an adult choosing for themselves whether or not to get a vaccine. It's about adults making those decisions for their children. Whatever stupid reasons someone might have to avoid getting immunizations, their children should have the right to necessary health care.

Okay.

Instance:

Parent does not want their child vaccinated. Child also does not want to be vaccinated.

What do?

Online Shiranu

Re: Should not vaccinating your child be a criminal offence?
« Reply #27 on: December 03, 2017, 02:20:26 AM »
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What is relevant is this: Forcing a foreign substance into ones body without their consent, and making it a criminal offense to resist, is a violation of human rights. That's it.

So parents who refuse to take their children to the hospital are within their human rights, even if it results in the death of their children.

Oh, wait, no they aren't.


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Parent does not want their child vaccinated. Child also does not want to be vaccinated.

Parent does not want their child to receive medication because it clashes with their religion. Child also does not want to be medicated.


Child dies. Are the parents innocent?


The answer is no, because the law is not black and white in this regard. The law is not the end-all, be-all of what is right or wrong.

The good of society outweighs individualism when no one is actually being injured or denied actual human rights. A prick from a needle stopping polio, small pox? Not a violation of a human right in most civilized societies. Is that a slippery slope? Fucking yes it is. But it's better to risk slipping then to do nothing. You can always get back on the slide if it goes to far... the dead don't have that luxury.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2017, 02:31:53 AM by Shiranu »
Om Mani Padme Hum

Re: Should not vaccinating your child be a criminal offence?
« Reply #28 on: December 03, 2017, 08:10:14 AM »
Vaccines put an inert/dead version of the the disease in your body so your immune system gets the blue print. This can take several doses to teach your body to effectively identify them, but even then they are around 95% effective so the more people who have been vaccinated the less likely that an out break will happen. The difference between our current coverage of 92% and 92% is very low risk and that's roughly 3 million people. Do you need me to further explain to pass your "understanding" tests?
Welp, you left out a few things. Like the fact that certain individuals cannot be vaccinated due to severe allergic reactions. And also how certain individuals simply do not respond to vaccines  (making the vaccines ineffective for them). For these people, their only hope of being protected from infection is to have everyone around them vaccinated thereby lowering the chances of them being exposed live infections.

And for those reasons, your glib little claim that   "their effectiveness means that the risk is much lower to be exposed and therefore need the vaccine is lower as well" is what most in the scientific community would refer to as bullshit.

Hmmm... I also notice you had no defense of the rest the shit you said that I pointed out as being incorrect. So I'm going to guess we're done here. Thanks for playing. Better luck next time.
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false and by the rulers as useful

Offline aitm

Re: Should not vaccinating your child be a criminal offence?
« Reply #29 on: December 03, 2017, 08:39:39 AM »
Considering a woman was just convicted of swearing at her 16 yr old son, she should get prison time on the rock.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust