Author Topic: Should not vaccinating your child be a criminal offence?  (Read 409 times)

Offline Coveny (OP)

Should not vaccinating your child be a criminal offence?
« on: November 29, 2017, 10:19:03 PM »
There is a lot of misinformation on the internet that references “studies” that have been debunked my science. There is also the fact that science isn’t infallible and has history has shown what science believe to be good for you today, could later turn out to be bad for you. I believe in this case vaccines have proven they work, and they are good science, but their effectiveness means that the risk is much lower to be exposed and therefore need the vaccine is lower as well.

We’ve recently seen cases of preventable illness come back into America after years without a case. I’m a supporter of freedom, but I want what’s best for our society as well. Laws about seatbelts statistically save lives, but this is forcing people to do things against their will for society and their own “good”. How can we call it freedom if we don’t have the choice to make bad decisions? Freedom isn’t defined by a Stepford wife following along because she’s programed to, freedom is defined by doing things like drinking, smoking, gambling, etc that many disagree with. Where is the line in the sand on freedom?

Many public schools require immunization of children or they won’t accept them. These people are paying their taxes for services they cannot use. Should they get a tax break? Is that fair? Is it ethical to take away services paid for simply because you don’t agree with the way the person using it acts? And if it’s based more on the danger the unimmunized child presents what’s the liability?

Should we charge anti-vaxxer parents with assault or murder if they cause an outbreak? They generally live in communities, is the whole community to blame? How do we decide (if we agree there should be punishment) who and how much is justified? And what about their own children?

Is it moral to punish a parent for doing what they believe will help even if the end result hurts their child? I don’t know of a single parent who hasn’t felt like they’ve made some bad decisions in raising their children. It’s not like we received a handbook, and even if we did no one would have time to read it. As it requires more and more time to simply “get by” economically, how much of this is societies fault, and how much is simply a case of not having the time and money to do your due diligence?
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Re: Should not vaccinating your child be a criminal offence?
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2017, 12:07:55 AM »
There is a lot of misinformation on the internet that references “studies” that have been debunked my science. There is also the fact that science isn’t infallible and has history has shown what science believe to be good for you today, could later turn out to be bad for you.
Of course science isn't fallible, but it's a process of systematizing knowledge that far surpasses any competitor.  In fact, it's misleading to say there are even competitors at all.  Faith, tradition, etc don't hold a candle.  And the past few centuries of science have put the previous millennium to shame.

And while things do change (self-correction is an advantage of science, not a defect, and it certainly beats making errors and not correcting them) things do change, but it's not like seasonal fashions - in one season and out the next.  For example, we don't switch back and forth from a flat earth and a round earth.  It is still round, it's just slightly thicker at the equator.  An oblate spheroid instead of a perfect sphere.  We're advancing to ever finer gradations of truth rather than alternating between 100% truth and 100% falsehood.

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I believe in this case vaccines have proven they work, and they are good science, but their effectiveness means that the risk is much lower to be exposed and therefore need the vaccine is lower as well.
I hope this is another example of misinformation.

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We’ve recently seen cases of preventable illness come back into America after years without a case. I’m a supporter of freedom, but I want what’s best for our society as well. Laws about seatbelts statistically save lives, but this is forcing people to do things against their will for society and their own “good”. How can we call it freedom if we don’t have the choice to make bad decisions? Freedom isn’t defined by a Stepford wife following along because she’s programed to, freedom is defined by doing things like drinking, smoking, gambling, etc that many disagree with. Where is the line in the sand on freedom?
As the adage goes, your freedom stops at my nose.  People aren't free to harm others.

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Many public schools require immunization of children or they won’t accept them. These people are paying their taxes for services they cannot use. Should they get a tax break?
No.  Afaik, people who get banned from the library or lose their driver's license don't get tax breaks, either.

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Is it ethical to take away services paid for simply because you don’t agree with the way the person using it acts?
If they screw up to the point of being denied those services, it's more than simply disagreeing with how they act.

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And if it’s based more on the danger the unimmunized child presents what’s the liability?
I don't know enough about the law to comment on that.

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Is it moral to punish a parent for doing what they believe will help even if the end result hurts their child?
Absolutely.  Case in point: child labor laws and anti-abuse laws.

Online Baruch

Re: Should not vaccinating your child be a criminal offence?
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2017, 01:42:35 AM »
Generally speaking, yes.  At least a misdemeanor.  But there has to be valid medical exceptions as well.  Public health is an important concept.  But I don't consider parental rights to be some absolute.  The child, and the State, have interests as well.
שלום

Offline Sal1981

Re: Should not vaccinating your child be a criminal offence?
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2017, 06:41:46 AM »
Yes, since it puts other vulnerable children at risk due to diminished herd immunity.
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool" --- Richard P. Feynman

Online Munch

Re: Should not vaccinating your child be a criminal offence?
« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2017, 07:38:46 AM »
Yes, since it puts other vulnerable children at risk due to diminished herd immunity.

pretty much this. If some backwards creeps don't want their child vaccinated, then they shouldn't be allowed to bring them to school.

Re: Should not vaccinating your child be a criminal offence?
« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2017, 11:27:32 AM »
Here's the thing. What you choose to do with your own body, that's up to you. If you're an idiot who thinks you're going to get autism if you get a vaccine, then don't get one. But when it comes to children, they're not able to give truly informed consent. Their parents are the ones who make decisions for them. A parent's stupidity and personal beliefs should not be allowed to negatively impact a child's health, or the health of the children around them.

Now, if a child is denied schooling because of their parents' refusal to get a vaccine, the parent will probably consider homeschooling, but I think that should be outlawed too. Parents with no teaching degrees have no business taking on the vital role as their child's teacher. Parents who homeschool also have a great tendency to emotionally and physically abuse their children. When a child is bullied at school, they can at least feel safe at home. But a child that is bullied at home has nowhere to escape to. The only reason a parent chooses to homeschool in the first place is so they can indoctrinate their children and limit their exposure to the real world. That's why 99% of the time, the parents who homeschool are Christians. If both refusing vaccines and proper schooling to children is outlawed, Christians will cry "persecution," as they always do. But abuse is abuse, and it is for the good of the children.
"Birds born in a cage think flying is an illness." - Alejandro Jodorowsky

Online Munch

Re: Should not vaccinating your child be a criminal offence?
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2017, 05:41:58 PM »
oh I agree home schooling never works out, that example, but also the example of if the child is so delinquent no school wants them and the child is forced to be home schools, which is a whole other bag of crap.

But what can be done otherwise. A child who doesn't get vaccinated is a threat to other children and being around them, and it falls to the parents to ensure both their child and other children are safe. So what should be done, should the government or schools step in and make parents sigh a form declaring they must have their children vaccinated, or even the government stepping in and forcing the parents to do so or face criminals charges? 

Offline Mermaid

Re: Should not vaccinating your child be a criminal offence?
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2017, 06:33:32 PM »
No. Making it law wouldn't solve any issues and would only cost money and cause more dissent. Education is the key.
We are tied to the ocean. And when we go back to the sea, whether it is to sail or to watch - we are going back from whence we came.

John F. Kennedy

Re: Should not vaccinating your child be a criminal offence?
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2017, 07:12:12 PM »
All children should be vaccinated.  It affects all of society potentially--not just other children, but adults as well and especially the elderly. 
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Online Baruch

Re: Should not vaccinating your child be a criminal offence?
« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2017, 07:23:25 PM »
All children should be vaccinated.  It affects all of society potentially--not just other children, but adults as well and especially the elderly.

All humans should be caged, not allowed to smoke, do drugs, not do exercise, eat and drink all wrong ... the lack of military discipline, affects all of society negatively.
שלום

Offline Mermaid

Re: Should not vaccinating your child be a criminal offence?
« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2017, 08:11:54 PM »
All children should be vaccinated.  It affects all of society potentially--not just other children, but adults as well and especially the elderly. 
Agree.
We are tied to the ocean. And when we go back to the sea, whether it is to sail or to watch - we are going back from whence we came.

John F. Kennedy

Re: Should not vaccinating your child be a criminal offence?
« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2017, 08:28:58 PM »
Whether you believe vaccinations are good are bad, and indeed what they are - good or bad - is actually completely irrelevant to this topic, believe it or not.

What is relevant is this: Forcing a foreign substance into ones body without their consent, and making it a criminal offense to resist, is a violation of human rights. That's it.


Offline Coveny (OP)

Re: Should not vaccinating your child be a criminal offence?
« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2017, 08:57:10 PM »
I hope this is another example of misinformation.

No they are a victim of their own effectiveness.

As the adage goes, your freedom stops at my nose.  People aren't free to harm others.

An unvaccinated person doesn't touch your nose, they just make it easier for bugs to do it. So that saying does not apply.
Developing ForDebating.com that I hope to populate with intelligent critical thinkers. You can follow updates at https://www.facebook.com/fordebating or subscribe to us at for tutorial videos.

Offline Coveny (OP)

Re: Should not vaccinating your child be a criminal offence?
« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2017, 08:59:21 PM »
Here's the thing. What you choose to do with your own body, that's up to you. If you're an idiot who thinks you're going to get autism if you get a vaccine, then don't get one. But when it comes to children, they're not able to give truly informed consent. Their parents are the ones who make decisions for them. A parent's stupidity and personal beliefs should not be allowed to negatively impact a child's health, or the health of the children around them.

Now, if a child is denied schooling because of their parents' refusal to get a vaccine, the parent will probably consider homeschooling, but I think that should be outlawed too. Parents with no teaching degrees have no business taking on the vital role as their child's teacher. Parents who homeschool also have a great tendency to emotionally and physically abuse their children. When a child is bullied at school, they can at least feel safe at home. But a child that is bullied at home has nowhere to escape to. The only reason a parent chooses to homeschool in the first place is so they can indoctrinate their children and limit their exposure to the real world. That's why 99% of the time, the parents who homeschool are Christians. If both refusing vaccines and proper schooling to children is outlawed, Christians will cry "persecution," as they always do. But abuse is abuse, and it is for the good of the children.

That's a strong position to take on the matter...
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Offline Coveny (OP)

Re: Should not vaccinating your child be a criminal offence?
« Reply #14 on: November 30, 2017, 09:00:12 PM »
No. Making it law wouldn't solve any issues and would only cost money and cause more dissent. Education is the key.

Yes but then there is our education system...
Developing ForDebating.com that I hope to populate with intelligent critical thinkers. You can follow updates at https://www.facebook.com/fordebating or subscribe to us at for tutorial videos.