Author Topic: Believe in Tesla and Volt?  (Read 834 times)

Online Hakurei Reimu

Re: Believe in Tesla and Volt?
« Reply #90 on: December 04, 2017, 06:22:57 PM »
...you realize one of your equations is dimensionally inconsistent, right?

Nobody's talking about infinite power. The energy cost for a comfortable life, or even an extravagant life, is strictly finite. Even multiplied over billions of people, it's still finite. There's still a finite value you can put on it, and a finite value that will satisfy everyone. Those who posit a post-scarcity society never suggest that the resources of such a society is actually infinite. They simply posit a society with energy harvesting and resource recovery at such a level that any human want is simply overwhelmed but the glut of resources and energy. Economics —the way in which a society manages scarce resources— becomes meaningless in a post-scarcity society. There's no air economy, for instance, because air is literally only a breath away.

No technology ever developed without early adopters. They are people who see the promise of the new technology and buy early even though they know it's a losing proposition for those early models, because making the early models teaches you how to make better models.

Anyway, your grasp of physics is as dubious as your grasp of economics. Physics is not your friend, but it's also not your enemy. Nature doesn't care if you're having fun.
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Offline Baruch (OP)

Re: Believe in Tesla and Volt?
« Reply #91 on: December 04, 2017, 10:45:31 PM »
Carefully checked but ...

Power = Energy (e.g. kilowatts)/Time (e.g. hours) should read ...
Power = Energy (e.g. kilowatts) * Time (e.g. hours) hence kilowatt hours.

so therefore ... environmentally friendly, cheap transportation is just around the corner?  Sorry, still not happening.  Unless you mean foot power and bicycles.

But yes, we can tweak, with say hybrids, but doesn't get rid of the hydrocarbon problem, just makes it more efficient for city driving.  Hybrids are not more efficient for long distance driving.

You can get rid of you hydrocarbons anytime .. I will buy all your gas for $1 per gallon, as I need to refill.  Then you will have a clean conscience.

No amount of financial fraud can fix this energy problem .. if it takes 2 BTUs to extract 1 BTU of fuel, you are losing, not gaining.  BitCoin or not.  Eventually that will happen with hydrocarbons.  Where is the breakeven on wind power?  Giant windmills made by burning hydrocarbons ... have you taken that up-front cost into account?  I hope we get a positive net of course.

PS - the ultimate fair test is new windmills created by using windmill energy alone.  Then there is no cheating.  Takes that "energy density" to melt steel, and yes, you can do small batches with a giant solar mirror ... but I have yet to see a steel mill run that way.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2017, 07:19:57 AM by Baruch »
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Online Hakurei Reimu

Re: Believe in Tesla and Volt?
« Reply #92 on: December 05, 2017, 02:07:51 PM »
Carefully checked but ...

Power = Energy (e.g. kilowatts)/Time (e.g. hours) should read ...
Power = Energy (e.g. kilowatts) * Time (e.g. hours) hence kilowatt hours.
Dude, the kilowatt is a unit of power, not energy. And since power is energy/time, power*time is energy. Hence, the kilowatt-hour is a unit of energy, not power.

How the hell did you pass any engineering test without knowing that?

so therefore ... environmentally friendly, cheap transportation is just around the corner?
Strawman. Nobody is drawing this connection but you.

No amount of financial fraud can fix this energy problem .. if it takes 2 BTUs to extract 1 BTU of fuel, you are losing, not gaining.  BitCoin or not.  Eventually that will happen with hydrocarbons.
When that happens, the hydrocarbon fuel economy will end, but it hasn't happened yet. Even when that does happen, there'll still be hydrocarbons sold, just not as a primary fuel — it still has utility as secondary fuel and as the feedstock of synthetics, which have a buttload of useful properties. There's nothing to say that those 2 BTU's have to come from hydrocarbons. Plants have much worse conversion rates than 50%, but we're not giving up on farming anytime soon.

Where is the breakeven on wind power?  Giant windmills made by burning hydrocarbons ... have you taken that up-front cost into account?  I hope we get a positive net of course.
Current windmills are currently made by burning hydrocarbons because that's what's available. Actually, most of it is currently made by burning coal, because that's how you smelt iron and make steel, the primary components of windmills. But there's no physical law that says that the source of heat for smelting has to be coal, or that the machines driving the manufacturing and assembly has to be hydrocarbons. Electricity is the great equalizer here.

Takes that "energy density" to melt steel, and yes, you can do small batches with a giant solar mirror ... but I have yet to see a steel mill run that way.
Nobody is proposing to do the smelting with a solar furnace. A solar thermal plant will produce power (or a wind farm, equivalently) and suitably buffered would give a stable output of electrical power for manufacture. We have industrial electric furnaces today that are used in production. Right now, fossil fuels are cheap enough to make them not viable except in specialized applications (not steel making), but we do have the technology.
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Offline Baruch (OP)

Re: Believe in Tesla and Volt?
« Reply #93 on: December 05, 2017, 07:03:58 PM »
Yes, it will end ... while you are driving your $50k golf cart to the store or to work ... so you can look cool and virtue signal.  Meanwhile the rest of us zombies will be looking to eat your brains ;-)  But we will be on foot, and lurch a lot ;-))

I am an old man, going blind.  Yes, kilowatt is power ... and power times time is energy.  I stand corrected again.  But doesn't change the actual physics/economics.  No manifest destiny will make it cheap to move one or two tons of metal down the street .. at 40 mph.  A golf cart is available now, but goes much slower.  And is affordable.  Better retire to a community like Prescott AZ, so you can easily get around on your golf cart.  I will be walking, thanks.  More healthy that way.  Once we move the entire US population to nice golf club retirement communities, we won't produce any more carbon ;-))

Or you can hope that aliens will bring us transporter technology, per Earth Final Conflict.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2017, 07:17:57 PM by Baruch »
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Online PickelledEggs

Re: Believe in Tesla and Volt?
« Reply #94 on: December 05, 2017, 10:12:47 PM »
Ignorance is bliss. Ignorance is arrogance. Stubborn ignorance is Baruch.
"Tell Pilate to release the files!!!" - Bill Hicks
"I have an open mind, but not so open that my brains will fall out" -James Randi
"One who truly hates himself cannot love, he cannot place his trust in another." - NGE

Offline Baruch (OP)

Re: Believe in Tesla and Volt?
« Reply #95 on: December 06, 2017, 07:32:48 AM »
Ignorance is bliss. Ignorance is arrogance. Stubborn ignorance is Baruch.

Rhetoric won't get you to work or the grocery store.  Scoring "points" won't pay the rent.  Reality is a bitch.
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Re: Believe in Tesla and Volt?
« Reply #96 on: December 06, 2017, 12:48:11 PM »
No manifest destiny will make it cheap to move one or two tons of metal down the street .. at 40 mph. 

No one is saying that it is.  What is being said is that that energy has to come from somewhere, and right now technology is available that avoids pumping more smog into the air.

I quite fancy upgrading to one of these in a year or two

Look at the cost to fill the tank.   The whole bike itself only costs a little more than a petrol bike of the same specs.
Winner of WitchSabrinas Best Advice Award 2012


We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real
tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. -Plato

Online Hakurei Reimu

Re: Believe in Tesla and Volt?
« Reply #97 on: December 06, 2017, 12:53:25 PM »
Yes, it will end ... while you are driving your $50k golf cart to the store or to work ... so you can look cool and virtue signal.
I don't virtue signal, Baruch, and I couldn't look cool in an igloo. Such things are meaningless to me. If I buy a $50k "golf cart," as you laughably refer electric cars to, it'll be because I think it would be a good buy.

I am an old man, going blind.  Yes, kilowatt is power ... and power times time is energy.  I stand corrected again.  But doesn't change the actual physics/economics.
I don't believe you know enough about either to tell anyone what about the physics/economics doesn't change. I mean, for fuck's sake, Baruch, you wrote that kilowatts were a unit of energy — you can't blame that on your poor vision.

No manifest destiny will make it cheap to move one or two tons of metal down the street .. at 40 mph.
It will cost the same amount of energy, of course, to first approximation, but that doesn't translate to costing the same amount of dollars. That's the point that seems to be escaping you. The dollar cost of that energy depends on the supply. Like I pointed out before, there is a silly amount of energy raining down upon our heads from the sun each second. The fossil fuels we burn nowadays is a laughably vanishingly small fraction of the energy that fell upon the earth during the period of those fuels' formation. A suitably placed solar panel can easily gather ~6 Wh/day per watt of installed capacity, and at a cost of $2.87/W and a lifetime of around 20 years (actually better, but nevermind that), that nets you $0.0654/kWh produced.

This is at current solar PV prices. Solar thermal will be even cheaper. Furthermore, what you are really paying for here is human labor. Roughly speaking, the price of a product depends on how much human labor is needed to create it, on a per-unit basis for the complete manufacturing cycle. Automation has a habit of bringing unit costs down for precisely this reason.

While you may be right, you've given no compelling reason to believe that you are. So far, you've given every indication that your doom-and-gloom predictions are nothing more than your brain accumulating mold. Again, nature doesn't care if your having fun.

Or you can hope that aliens will bring us transporter technology, per Earth Final Conflict.
Says someone who sounds like all their engineering and physics knowledge came from Star Trek. Color me unimpressed.
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Online PickelledEggs

Re: Believe in Tesla and Volt?
« Reply #98 on: December 06, 2017, 02:21:12 PM »
Rhetoric won't get you to work or the grocery store.  Scoring "points" won't pay the rent.
Who said anything about scoring points? I've given up on trying to have a conversation with you about this topic. Now I'm just poking around. And are you criticizing rhetoric? Isn't that all you're good for anyway, Baruch?

Quote
Reality is a bitch.
Yes. I am well aware. Is that why you're so detached from it, Baruch?
"Tell Pilate to release the files!!!" - Bill Hicks
"I have an open mind, but not so open that my brains will fall out" -James Randi
"One who truly hates himself cannot love, he cannot place his trust in another." - NGE

Offline Baruch (OP)

Re: Believe in Tesla and Volt?
« Reply #99 on: December 06, 2017, 08:34:40 PM »
No one is saying that it is.  What is being said is that that energy has to come from somewhere, and right now technology is available that avoids pumping more smog into the air.

I quite fancy upgrading to one of these in a year or two

Look at the cost to fill the tank.   The whole bike itself only costs a little more than a petrol bike of the same specs.

There is technology ... for the few.  Ask the peasants in the jungles of Biafra (much destroyed corner of Nigeria).  So what?  Unless you can provide transportation for 300+ million Americans, the game is over.  Golf carts won't do it.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2017, 08:37:39 PM by Baruch »
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Offline Baruch (OP)

Re: Believe in Tesla and Volt?
« Reply #100 on: December 06, 2017, 08:36:56 PM »
Who said anything about scoring points? I've given up on trying to have a conversation with you about this topic. Now I'm just poking around. And are you criticizing rhetoric? Isn't that all you're good for anyway, Baruch?
Yes. I am well aware. Is that why you're so detached from it, Baruch?

I did not detach from reality ... it detached from me ;-))  I understand pr126 all to well.  Same as what happened with the two failed major parties in the US.  They could have taken advice from retarded  children, rather than policy wonks, and done better these last 40 years.  And I will continue to refrain from ad-hominems .. unlike some people.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2017, 08:38:27 PM by Baruch »
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Re: Believe in Tesla and Volt?
« Reply #101 on: December 07, 2017, 01:37:11 PM »
There is technology ... for the few.  Ask the peasants in the jungles of Biafra (much destroyed corner of Nigeria).  So what?  Unless you can provide transportation for 300+ million Americans, the game is over.  Golf carts won't do it.

Like I said, it only costs a little more than a petrol bike.   As the technology matures the price will come down.   

Right now I can buy a computer the size of my thumb that twenty years ago would have cost a hundred times as much.
Winner of WitchSabrinas Best Advice Award 2012


We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real
tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. -Plato

Offline Baruch (OP)

Re: Believe in Tesla and Volt?
« Reply #102 on: December 07, 2017, 11:50:54 PM »
Like I said, it only costs a little more than a petrol bike.   As the technology matures the price will come down.   

Right now I can buy a computer the size of my thumb that twenty years ago would have cost a hundred times as much.

Drive your computer to work then ;-)  Technology doesn't equal ... it becomes affordable eventually.  And yes, use an electric bicycle to go to work.
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Offline Cavebear

Re: Believe in Tesla and Volt?
« Reply #103 on: December 09, 2017, 06:14:11 AM »
I give up. Baruch is the independent version of pr. Equally detached from reality, but instead of being very racist and citing brietbart.... he is on some other type of next-level bullshit

Thank you.  I keep trying to reason with him.  But he is the craziest person I've ever stayed in contact with and can't escape if I stay here.

I wish he was gone.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!  b 1950

Offline Baruch (OP)

Re: Believe in Tesla and Volt?
« Reply #104 on: December 09, 2017, 10:00:26 AM »
Thank you.  I keep trying to reason with him.  But he is the craziest person I've ever stayed in contact with and can't escape if I stay here.

I wish he was gone.

I am the anti-you ... in that I am so glad you stay.  Because I like you.  Think of me as a crazy girlfriend that you can't stop dating ;-))
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