Author Topic: Believe in Tesla and Volt?  (Read 838 times)

Re: Believe in Tesla and Volt?
« Reply #30 on: November 29, 2017, 02:10:03 PM »
I can't tell if Baruch is for or against electric vehicles any more.
I can't tell if he's sane anymore.

Re: Believe in Tesla and Volt?
« Reply #31 on: November 29, 2017, 02:34:17 PM »
Lets see, recharge stations .. need to replace most gas stations ... is that 100,000 ... takes about $100K each, so that is about $10B ... not much money, not counting the actual electricity.  Now get someone to build it.  But it takes me 10 minutes to gas up at a gas station.  Takes overnight at a recharge station.  Oops.  Apples vs Oranges comparison strikes again.
Your numbers are a little off there. When you buy a gas powered car, you need lots of gas stations available to keep it running. In most cases, when you buy an electric car, your house becomes a gas station. Kind of kicks the ass right out that 100,000 stations needed argument doesn't it?

Also it doesn't take overnight to charge them. Or at least it doesn't have to. Rapid charging stations will put a full charge on a car in about the time it takes to eat lunch. Nope its not nearly as fast as it takes to pump gas into a tank. But that just means the model will change and we will fuel our vehicles while we're doing other things.

Remember its just a matter of plugging in a cable. So there are hazardous storage issues, no need for an attendant of any sort, no need for constant maintenance. This means any business with parking capacity can opt to start making money from that parking area by putting in charging hardware and selling electric for charging vehicles. Wanna stop at Starbucks for a tripple frap pap smear or whatever the fuck they serve? Park your car, swipe your card and put 20 minutes of charge in it while you're there.
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Offline SGOS

Re: Believe in Tesla and Volt?
« Reply #32 on: November 29, 2017, 03:15:50 PM »
But apparently renewables and electric cars are too reminiscent of Elon Musk, who he inexplicably has a real hate boner for. 
That is the impression I've picked up also.  He hasn't owned that, and I don't expect that he will.  I don't know enough about Musk to hate him or to put him on a pedestal.  He might even have mental problems, but the bottom line is that an idea is neither good or bad because of its source (think Argumentum ad Hominem). 

Ultimately, the worth of electric cars will be determined in the free market by people's willingness to part with their hard earned dollars.  If electric cars provide no benefit, people won't buy them.  Crony capitalism may come into play, but right now the oil industry is holding those cards, and Musk is up against a behemoth.  If his endeavor changes society, it will be noteworthy. 

But this may be the first really major step in weaning us off of what we all know is a finite and polluting resource.  It's not enough, I don't think, but it will be a monumentally big step if it succeeds.  I'd like to be around to see how this all shakes out, because there will be hurdles, many of them political.

Offline Hakurei Reimu

Re: Believe in Tesla and Volt?
« Reply #33 on: November 29, 2017, 03:47:25 PM »
"if only we could harvest it" ... energy density problem says ... you can't solve this.  It takes power to condense energy into dense form, which defeats you.
Mirrors, son. There's no problem in energy condensation. You can raise the temperature of the place you focus sunlight onto to up to 6000 K (theoretical limit) and almost every conventional boiler design will melt long before that point, so it's a limit we can comfortably come under. That's going to give you pretty good thermal efficiency. This is yet more proof that you don't know your physics.

If I have infinite money, I can make a giant solar cell farm, big enough to take care of my household.
$4000 is hardly "infinite money." That's how much money you would need to shell out to to get a panel of sufficient size to service your home, assuming around 10,000 kWh/year average. My first used car was more expensive, and that fucker was old enough to vote when I bought it. And this is of course using PV; solar thermal will be much cheaper per MW. On the other hand, the panel is 70 m on a side, so it is a big fucker, and the real price figure may be an order of magnitude out.

Every time I look at renewables, the more attractive they look. It's not even conspiracy; it simply intellectually lazy bullshit. You never sat down to figure out even within an order of magnitude how much it would set you back. Reality is not the obstacle here. It's will.
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Re: Believe in Tesla and Volt?
« Reply #34 on: November 29, 2017, 04:23:40 PM »
That is the impression I've picked up also.  He hasn't owned that, and I don't expect that he will.  I don't know enough about Musk to hate him or to put him on a pedestal.
I vaguely know about him.  I admire the audacity of his goals (Mars, space tourism, etc) and his resolve to innovate.  Very forward-thinking guy.  I respect that.

But here's the thing, he could get high on bath salts, burn Tesla to the ground, and jump off a bridge, and it wouldn't change our need to switch from gas-guzzlers to electric vehicles.  Nor would it wipe out the technology we would need to make that transition.

Ultimately, Musk is irrelevant to this conversation.

Quote
Ultimately, the worth of electric cars will be determined in the free market by people's willingness to part with their hard earned dollars.  If electric cars provide no benefit, people won't buy them.
And of course, there are huge benefits beyond carbon emissions.  Better fuel economy, lower fuel costs, lower maintenance costs, less noise and no exhaust smell.  The free market would LOVE to get rid of gasoline.

Quote
But this may be the first really major step in weaning us off of what we all know is a finite and polluting resource.  It's not enough, I don't think, but it will be a monumentally big step if it succeeds.  I'd like to be around to see how this all shakes out, because there will be hurdles, many of them political.
You're right that it's not enough.  Transportation currently accounts for 27% of our carbon emissions.  A 100% switchover to electric vehicles wouldn't even completely wipe that out, since the electric grid is still primarily powered by fossil fuels.  But it's a step forward, and going forward is the only way to get anywhere.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2017, 04:25:19 PM by Hydra009 »

Offline Baruch (OP)

Re: Believe in Tesla and Volt?
« Reply #35 on: November 29, 2017, 07:02:34 PM »
If y'all want to really help CO2 emissions, plant some trees ... and stop breathing yourselves ;-)  People have strange obsessions, like trying to stay alive.  The really selfish want to live in something better than a mud hut.  Those people are evil.  We must all be Gandhi .. and spin our own cloth, and walk ... 200 miles to harvest our own salt.

I planned on being in renewables ... in 1980.  If it is such an obvious thing, then put in your own housing mods, and buy a Volt etc.  If you can in your city, do it.  Just don't expect the majority to live your upper middle class fantasy.  And no, there is no free market ... no free lunch either.  Reagan and the oil industry made sure of that ... in 1981.  People who live in the First World, just can't see how "owned" they are.

Elon Musk ... as soon as he said he was planning a retreat, for billionaires on Mars ... you know he is a loon.  If you don't, then you are a loon too.  People who think AI is just around the corner, or already here ... loons.  Cold Fusion advertisements ... with taxpayer subsidy.  Tesla was smart ... but wanted to deliver electricity by polarizing the ionosphere ... after inventing AC ... he was a loon.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2017, 07:09:43 PM by Baruch »
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Offline Hakurei Reimu

Re: Believe in Tesla and Volt?
« Reply #36 on: November 29, 2017, 08:49:46 PM »
You've been crowing about the "free lunch" for a while now. Who's speaking about a free lunch, Baruch? Other than the obvious crazies, that is?

Elon Musk is a loon and always has been. But —again— there's a gulf of difference and a wide spectrum between Musk's techno-messiah lunacy and your doom and gloom.
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Offline PickelledEggs

Re: Believe in Tesla and Volt?
« Reply #37 on: November 30, 2017, 01:34:45 AM »
Elon Musk is the Jim Jones of technology, drink the Kool-Aide if you dare.  Earlier, some people claimed that natural gas stations (natural gas added to power gas (not gasoline) powered municipal vehicles and buses) were going to save us.  Yes ... reduce petroleum use, oh you hypocrites.  Walk to work.  Welcome to the new Zimbabwe.  It takes X amount of energy to move a one ton vehicle at Y mph Z distance.  Classical physics.  And QFT doesn't change that (contrary to scifi).  And that energy isn't free, not matter how much the cronies jimmy the economy.  Moore's Law saves your iPhone, but it won't save your car.
Does your tinfoil hat have the word "dunce" written on it?
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Online Shiranu

Re: Believe in Tesla and Volt?
« Reply #38 on: November 30, 2017, 01:38:03 AM »
Om Mani Padme Hum

Offline Baruch (OP)

Re: Believe in Tesla and Volt?
« Reply #39 on: November 30, 2017, 01:54:07 AM »
Does your tinfoil hat have the word "dunce" written on it?

Go get your free lunch (socialism) and sail your free yacht to vacation with your Cayman Island fortune?  There has been a little progress here and there ... but not enough, and too late.  We continue to emulate Thelma & Louise.  The US is a big country, and it is completely corrupt.  So maybe RI can be saved ...
« Last Edit: November 30, 2017, 02:01:23 AM by Baruch »
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Offline Baruch (OP)

Re: Believe in Tesla and Volt?
« Reply #40 on: November 30, 2017, 01:58:54 AM »
You've been crowing about the "free lunch" for a while now. Who's speaking about a free lunch, Baruch? Other than the obvious crazies, that is?

Elon Musk is a loon and always has been. But —again— there's a gulf of difference and a wide spectrum between Musk's techno-messiah lunacy and your doom and gloom.

US techno-utopia is presently based on completely mis-priced goods and services of a crony capitalism (with fake socialism for the masses).  That and move all engineering and manufacturing to China, and all software and services to India.  Hope that works out for y'all.  If the US, Europe etc weren't trying to commit suicide on multiple levels (crazy nut jobs) then I would be an optimist.  I fail to be an optimist around drugged out Russian roulette fans.
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Offline PickelledEggs

Re: Believe in Tesla and Volt?
« Reply #41 on: November 30, 2017, 02:18:28 AM »
Go get your free lunch (socialism) and sail your free yacht to vacation with your Cayman Island fortune?  There has been a little progress here and there ... but not enough, and too late.  We continue to emulate Thelma & Louise.  The US is a big country, and it is completely corrupt.  So maybe RI can be saved ...
What the actual fuck are you babbling about?
I've never said anything about free anything in here.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk
"Tell Pilate to release the files!!!" - Bill Hicks
"I have an open mind, but not so open that my brains will fall out" -James Randi
"One who truly hates himself cannot love, he cannot place his trust in another." - NGE

Offline Baruch (OP)

Re: Believe in Tesla and Volt?
« Reply #42 on: November 30, 2017, 06:38:16 AM »
What the actual fuck are you babbling about?
I've never said anything about free anything in here.

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My ambiguity ... sorry.  I approach posts as meta-narratives.  Unless I say PickelledEggs - XXX for example.  It is hard to keep focus (in the text) without simply rewriting everything, with quotes and footnotes.
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Offline Baruch (OP)

Re: Believe in Tesla and Volt?
« Reply #43 on: November 30, 2017, 06:41:39 AM »
(Image removed from quote.)

The usual.  Meta-conversation on multiple simultaneous levels.  With associationist cross-overs and asides.  Grok it?
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Online Shiranu

Re: Believe in Tesla and Volt?
« Reply #44 on: November 30, 2017, 06:51:45 AM »
Om Mani Padme Hum