Author Topic: Believe in Tesla and Volt?  (Read 832 times)

Online Baruch (OP)

Believe in Tesla and Volt?
« on: November 20, 2017, 06:44:01 PM »
There have been auto-scams before, just not as well funded by a corrupt government ...

http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/videos/a31953/the-dale-1970s-three-wheel-gas-saver-scam/

Just hold each others hands, close your eyes and repeat ... I think it can, I think it can ...
« Last Edit: November 26, 2017, 05:29:10 PM by Baruch »
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Offline Cavebear

Re: Believe in Telsa and Volt?
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2017, 05:06:55 AM »
There have been auto-scams before, just not as well funded by a corrupt government ...

http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/videos/a31953/the-dale-1970s-three-wheel-gas-saver-scam/

Just hold each others hands, close your eyes and repeat ... I think it can, I think it can ...

I trust no AI cars...
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!  b 1950

Online Baruch (OP)

Re: Believe in Telsa and Volt?
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2017, 11:43:45 AM »
I trust no AI cars...

Do you read?  It is about electric cars aka golf carts.
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Re: Believe in Telsa and Volt?
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2017, 03:28:49 PM »
Do you read?  It is about electric cars aka golf carts.
Did you read? There is nothing about electric cars in the link provided. It was to be a 3-wheeled motorcycle/car which was to a 2-cylinder gas motor.

And yes, it was a scam that ended up cheating investors out of a lot of money. And while I'm sure I'll regret asking, here goes. So are you implying that Tesla's don't exist?
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false and by the rulers as useful

Online Baruch (OP)

Re: Believe in Telsa and Volt?
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2017, 05:30:50 PM »
Did you read? There is nothing about electric cars in the link provided. It was to be a 3-wheeled motorcycle/car which was to a 2-cylinder gas motor.

And yes, it was a scam that ended up cheating investors out of a lot of money. And while I'm sure I'll regret asking, here goes. So are you implying that Tesla's don't exist?

Aircraft carriers exist, but I won't be driving one to work.  Bicycles too ... but go ahead and ride one on the freeway to work.  Yes, I am implying that electric cars, and to a degree, even hybrids, are messianic control frauds.  That is how business is done today ... snake oil with government subsidy.
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Re: Believe in Tesla and Volt?
« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2017, 06:28:52 PM »
Not sure why you'd want to drive an aircraft carrier to work unless you work in the middle of the ocean and require lots of air support but whatever. Tesla delivered 73,000 units last year. Since we've agreed that its ok to use completely unrelated an irrelevant comparisons in this discussion how many new aircraft carriers were delivered last year?

I'm still not sure what your complaint is here but that's not surprising since you often speak in such a vague way that only you seem to really understand what you're saying at any given time. No matter though. If you don't like electric vehicles, don't buy one. If you're claiming that electric vehicles don't or won't exist, well you're going to have to do better than your normal oddball vague disregard for the english language if you want to make an actual point that anyone beside yourself can understand.

But on second thought, don't. Just don't. I clicked on the thread because of the title. Had I seen who actually wrote the post, I would've ignored it which is what I should have done in the first place. So forget I made the mistake of taking your bait and have a nice day.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2017, 06:31:55 PM by Johan »
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false and by the rulers as useful

Online Baruch (OP)

Re: Believe in Tesla and Volt?
« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2017, 11:06:17 PM »
OK ... suppose there is an all electric car?  Where does the electricity come from?  Mostly from petrochemicals and coal.  Renewables won't even keep our houses and apartments lit.  Not even with nuclear and hydro added in.  Suppose I can find a place to recharge it (one could as a commuter car in a metro, but between metros much less likely).  I won't pay much more than $10K for a vehicle, but suppose the base price is $35K.  I will never be able to afford one, unless the government gives me a huge subsidy to buy one.  Where do government subsidies come from?  Taxpayers, but some people think that money grows on trees if you are the government.  Mass production will reduce costs a little, but not so much as with computer chips.  Can't drive a computer chip to work (except as telework).  Too bad my job won't ever be allowed to be telework (military medical).

There are renewable forms of transportation.  They are called my legs, and a horse.  Both run on solar power indirectly.  My problem isn't with technology, it is with magical thinking about costs, about energy density, about how the whole petrochemical transport came about in the first place, which makes it very hard to reproduce with new technology (that energy density aka gas trucks or pipelines distributing fuel to gas stations).  And electric power, distributed long distance, is incredibly inefficient.
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Re: Believe in Tesla and Volt?
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2017, 12:41:24 AM »
I know I'm going to regret this but I'm in the baruch vortex now so fuck it.
Where does the electricity come from?  Mostly from petrochemicals and coal.  Renewables won't even keep our houses and apartments lit. 
They won't? My house has lights and its nice and warm. Are you saying yours isn't? Sucks being you.

Quote
Suppose I can find a place to recharge it (one could as a commuter car in a metro, but between metros much less likely).
I live in rural Michigan. I am not within reasonably daily commuting distance of any major city. There are close to 100 public charging stations within a 50 mile radius of me. Granted, that's still not enough but that network is also growing rapidly.


Quote
I won't pay much more than $10K for a vehicle, but suppose the base price is $35K.  I will never be able to afford one, unless the government gives me a huge subsidy to buy one. 
If your budget is $10k you're not buying a new car of any type these days. No one ever claimed the advent of electric vehicles would suddenly enable those who can't afford comparable gas vehicles to finally afford a new car.


Quote
There are renewable forms of transportation.  They are called my legs, and a horse.  Both run on solar power indirectly.  My problem isn't with technology, it is with magical thinking about costs, about energy density, about how the whole petrochemical transport came about in the first place, which makes it very hard to reproduce with new technology (that energy density aka gas trucks or pipelines distributing fuel to gas stations).  And electric power, distributed long distance, is incredibly inefficient.
This may come as a shock to you but electric power is distributed nearly everywhere already. And the cost to 'fill the tank' on an electric vehicle is a fraction of the cost to fill a gas tank on a comparable vehicle.
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false and by the rulers as useful

Online Baruch (OP)

Re: Believe in Tesla and Volt?
« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2017, 06:23:18 AM »
If you can afford an expensive car ... good for you.  Won't change the way the average person lives.

If your electricity is cheap in Michigan, maybe thank Niagara falls?

If electricity is cheaper than gasoline ... maybe there is a hidden subsidy you are unaware of?  Or you aren't paying enough for your electricity, someone else is paying for it.

Electric car chargers in the Michigan woods?  Weird ...
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Re: Believe in Tesla and Volt?
« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2017, 05:59:23 PM »
Where does the electricity come from?  Mostly from petrochemicals and coal.  Renewables won't even keep our houses and apartments lit.
Oh Really?
Winner of WitchSabrinas Best Advice Award 2012


We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real
tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. -Plato

Re: Believe in Tesla and Volt?
« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2017, 06:27:33 PM »
This may come as a shock to you but electric power is distributed nearly everywhere already. And the cost to 'fill the tank' on an electric vehicle is a fraction of the cost to fill a gas tank on a comparable vehicle.
Barauch pulls this crap all the time.  Renewables can't work this, too expensive that.  Trying to convince more by arguments that sound plausible (superficially plausible, more accurately) than with arguments grounded in reality.  I swear, I've posted the eGallon link at least twice already.  Doesn't seem to phase him.  It's almost as if he doesn't actually care about the facts of the matter.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2017, 06:37:09 PM by Hydra009 »

Online Baruch (OP)

Re: Believe in Tesla and Volt?
« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2017, 06:51:35 PM »
Barauch pulls this crap all the time.  Renewables can't work this, too expensive that.  Trying to convince more by arguments that sound plausible (superficially plausible, more accurately) than with arguments grounded in reality.  I swear, I've posted the eGallon link at least twice already.  Doesn't seem to phase him.  It's almost as if he doesn't actually care about the facts of the matter.

If I am Elron Musk, I can afford to hire engineers to ride stationary bicycles to provide electricity for my home ;-)  Since it is good exercise, they would actually pay me for the privilege ;-)  So ... you got a free lunch, miracle technology ... you are Iron Man?  You can afford anything, if you are rich.  But there is no miracle technology ... physics has no miracles.

So are you paying the "real" price for your electricity or not?  Probably not, nobody is paying the real price for fossil fuels for example.  If people paid forward for fossil fuels, from the beginning, it would never have been exploited ... we would have been stuck with renewable ... wood waste and cow chips ... same as the Third World.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2017, 06:54:08 PM by Baruch »
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Online Baruch (OP)

Re: Believe in Tesla and Volt?
« Reply #12 on: November 28, 2017, 03:58:33 AM »
Some actual numbers:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_energy_in_the_United_States

Currently in 2016, renewable produced 15% of electricity ... but of that only 1/5 is wind.  All increase in capacity will come from wind.  That is only 3% of total electricity in 2016, but it will increase.  Call me back when it is 80% of electricity production.  And you are still assuming that you can get a true electricity rate (not jimmied or subsidized) and will have money to pay for it (like that $35K car).  As supplies of lithium batteries dwindle (lithium is a rare element) we shall see.

Hybrids are viable now, because they use gasoline, they use electric motors to drive the wheels.  So they don't count in this discussion.  There may still be a shortage of electrical components, again ... batteries.

Totally renewable technology already existed, and did 200 years ago.  Walking and sailing ships.  And by 100 years ago, we had practical bicycles.  Bicycles didn't change the fundamentals, because you still use your legs.  We can have electric bikes to take a load off, but this is a lesser version of the above.  You can only go short distances, and you can't carry much load.  Without trucks ... food can't get to people.
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Offline SGOS

Re: Believe in Tesla and Volt?
« Reply #13 on: November 28, 2017, 08:42:08 AM »
For what it's worth, I looked at a Tesla over Thanksgiving.  I visited a viewing station in Chicago, where people get a chance to sit in a Tesla and talk to representatives.  First, it was a beautiful car and gave no hint that aesthetics must take a back seat to technological advancement.  It's shape and design competes with and flat outdoes most 2017 cars.  Second, it is spacious, but not in a pretentious 1960s Cadillac kind of way, just functionally designed to comfortably carry passengers.  Nothing in shape or comfort is compromised.  Third, the trunk space is larger than a typical modern car, as the space normally devoted to the gas tank is added to the trunk area.

I don't know about how it drives.  This was only a viewing station.  The only draw back I could see was the price.  The two on display were $85,000, and while the upcoming $35,000 vehicle is encouraging, it's still too much for me to consider when a gas powered vehicle is half the price.  But then a 42inch flat screen TV used to cost $2,000, so unless Teslas become as in demand as iPhones, the price should eventually reflect the price of labor and materials.  And of course, the other car manufacturers will have to go electric or die.

Concerns about recharging stations and other negatives will fall away.  Filling station owners need to think about the future, because their days are numbered if they think gas power will still be popular 20 years from now.

Re: Believe in Tesla and Volt?
« Reply #14 on: November 28, 2017, 12:50:21 PM »
The only draw back I could see was the price.  The two on display were $85,000, and while the upcoming $35,000 vehicle is encouraging, it's still too much for me to consider when a gas powered vehicle is half the price.  But then a 42inch flat screen TV used to cost $2,000, so unless Teslas become as in demand as iPhones, the price should eventually reflect the price of labor and materials.  And of course, the other car manufacturers will have to go electric or die.
Yeah, the price is the main thing holding back mass adoption.  As always, new technology has a steep initial cost.  But as the price comes down to roughly on par with gasoline vehicles, they'll quickly take over the market.  Given the option, who'd want a car with higher fuel costs and maintenance costs?