Author Topic: When is it okay for an atheist to tell a lie?  (Read 332 times)

Offline Cavebear

Re: When is it okay for an atheist to tell a lie?
« Reply #15 on: November 26, 2017, 03:07:38 AM »
Wondering if it is okay for me to tell a lie knowing I will not get caught. Like telling my dad someone stole the watch be gave me for my birthday instead of telling him that I actually lost it myself. Or cheating on the biology test at school as it is a subject that I really hate.

That isn't an atheist matter.  Why do you connect atheism with lying? 
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!  b 1950

Online Baruch

Re: When is it okay for an atheist to tell a lie?
« Reply #16 on: November 26, 2017, 12:03:58 PM »
That isn't an atheist matter.  Why do you connect atheism with lying?

You misread.  He is afraid of disappointing his family ... like coming out of the closet at gay.  Not that gay or atheist are connected, though it does for some people here.
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Offline Atheon

Re: When is it okay for an atheist to tell a lie?
« Reply #17 on: November 26, 2017, 12:25:02 PM »
Classic scenario about this knotty problem:

Imagine you're in a Nazi-occupied area and you're keeping Jews hidden away in your house. The Gestapo, intent on rounding up all Jews, knock at your door and ask you if you know of any Jews in the area. Is it OK to lie and say no?

EDIT: Looks like Hydra beat me to it.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2017, 12:28:28 PM by Atheon »
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful." - Seneca

Offline Draconic Aiur

Re: When is it okay for an atheist to tell a lie?
« Reply #18 on: November 26, 2017, 04:30:07 PM »
When is okay for a christian to lie? Same thing for everyone else: Not okay unless it's a white lie. But do Christians lie? All the fucking time.

Online Baruch

Re: When is it okay for an atheist to tell a lie?
« Reply #19 on: November 26, 2017, 05:33:32 PM »
Classic scenario about this knotty problem:

Imagine you're in a Nazi-occupied area and you're keeping Jews hidden away in your house. The Gestapo, intent on rounding up all Jews, knock at your door and ask you if you know of any Jews in the area. Is it OK to lie and say no?

EDIT: Looks like Hydra beat me to it.

In classic Hinduism, if you feel the truth, in that circumstance, you not only go to Hell, but to the bottom Hell.  Who do you want to be trustworthy to ... the Jew you are hiding or be a loyal German etc.
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Offline Cavebear

Re: When is it okay for an atheist to tell a lie?
« Reply #20 on: December 02, 2017, 04:36:05 AM »
In classic Hinduism, if you feel the truth, in that circumstance, you not only go to Hell, but to the bottom Hell.  Who do you want to be trustworthy to ... the Jew you are hiding or be a loyal German etc.

Hindus often claim to be non-theistic.  But you say they have a hell.  Who puts them there?
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!  b 1950

Offline Cavebear

Re: When is it okay for an atheist to tell a lie?
« Reply #21 on: December 02, 2017, 04:38:51 AM »
You misread.  He is afraid of disappointing his family ... like coming out of the closet at gay.  Not that gay or atheist are connected, though it does for some people here.

It is an atheist forum.  The connection seemed obvious. 
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!  b 1950

Online Baruch

Re: When is it okay for an atheist to tell a lie?
« Reply #22 on: December 02, 2017, 12:40:47 PM »
Hindus often claim to be non-theistic.  But you say they have a hell.  Who puts them there?

Very few Hindus are atheist.  Some Buddhists also.  The average Hindu or Buddhist is quite theistic, though their theism isn't Abrahamic.  For the others, they have an impersonal Absolute, rather than a personal one.  None of those are nihilist (that there is nothing Absolute/true).  The most extreme Buddhists do get to nihilism (something the average Buddhist is accused of) but not many.  It is a lot of work to become nothing at all.  Usually for Hindus/Buddhists, it is karma, the fruit of your own action, in this life and former lives, that puts you there.  Karma is mechanistic, not personal like Abrahamic judgement (which comes from Egypt mostly).

Yes, both Hindu and Buddhist theology has hells ... very much like Dante.  Dante probably got his from parts East (Gypsies?).  Most people are self righteous, and revenge oriented ... hence the misconception of an afterlife, with reward and punishment.  I don't agree with most people, but am closer to the atheist position.  Closer to the non-theist Hindu/Buddhist position, closer to the impersonal Absolute of Spinoza ... but not quite.  I can't be that impersonal, and am not nihilist either.  I find nihilism to be self contradictory.  What is the meaning of nihilism?

The Hellfire & Brimstone sermons of Jonathan Edwards .. could be taken straight from the Book of the Dead, 3000 years earlier.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2017, 12:43:13 PM by Baruch »
שלום

Re: When is it okay for an atheist to tell a lie?
« Reply #23 on: December 07, 2017, 04:00:36 PM »
When is okay for a christian to lie? Same thing for everyone else: Not okay unless it's a white lie. But do Christians lie? All the fucking time.
Here are some examples of Christians justifying their own lies:

Pious Lies


So, if Christians are OK with lying, why should anyone pick on us poor atheists for occasionally telling a bit of falsehood?
God Not Found
“Money supplants skill; it's possession allows us to become happily stupid.”
Bill McKibben, The Age of Missing Information

Offline Cavebear

Re: When is it okay for an atheist to tell a lie?
« Reply #24 on: December 09, 2017, 04:25:09 AM »
Very few Hindus are atheist.  Some Buddhists also.  The average Hindu or Buddhist is quite theistic, though their theism isn't Abrahamic.
After decades of hearing Hindus and Buddhists INSIST they are not theistic, it is refreshing to read a true expert like yourself state that they are.  Thank you, Huzzah, and Hooray!
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!  b 1950

Online Baruch

Re: When is it okay for an atheist to tell a lie?
« Reply #25 on: December 09, 2017, 04:37:31 AM »
After decades of hearing Hindus and Buddhists INSIST they are not theistic, it is refreshing to read a true expert like yourself state that they are.  Thank you, Huzzah, and Hooray!

They are not Abrahamic.  Hindus are very theistic usually ... Krishna is very popular.  Many Buddhists worship .... Amida Buddha.  In both cases though, judgement is the thru the impersonal mechanism of karma, not thru the personal condemnation by G-d.
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Offline Cavebear

Re: When is it okay for an atheist to tell a lie?
« Reply #26 on: December 09, 2017, 04:42:49 AM »
They are not Abrahamic.  Hindus are very theistic usually ... Krishna is very popular.  Many Buddhists worship .... Amida Buddha.  In both cases though, judgement is the thru the impersonal mechanism of karma, not thru the personal condemnation by G-d.

I might point out that a theism is not the deity but the belief in some structure about one.  As you yourself point out (and I agree), Hindus and Buddists have a structure about their supernatural beings.

Have you considered a similarity between the vague Karma and the vague Holy Ghost?
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!  b 1950

Online Baruch

Re: When is it okay for an atheist to tell a lie?
« Reply #27 on: December 09, 2017, 05:12:39 AM »
I might point out that a theism is not the deity but the belief in some structure about one.  As you yourself point out (and I agree), Hindus and Buddists have a structure about their supernatural beings.

Have you considered a similarity between the vague Karma and the vague Holy Ghost?

Interesting idea.  There is a lot of borrowing from Mahayana Buddhism into Christianity.  Jesus is like a typical Tibetan bodhisattva.  Hence the "Jesus in India" meme has at least theological basis, if not historical.  The Gospel of Mary is very Tibetan.
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Offline Cavebear

Re: When is it okay for an atheist to tell a lie?
« Reply #28 on: December 09, 2017, 05:19:29 AM »
Interesting idea.  There is a lot of borrowing from Mahayana Buddhism into Christianity.  Jesus is like a typical Tibetan bodhisattva.  Hence the "Jesus in India" meme has at least theological basis, if not historical.  The Gospel of Mary is very Tibetan.

You may or may not be surprised to find that I consider religious ideas as transferable across populations as DNA.  Indeed, they can can be easier to spread (peacefully or un) as genes.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!  b 1950

Online Baruch

Re: When is it okay for an atheist to tell a lie?
« Reply #29 on: December 09, 2017, 05:36:35 AM »
You may or may not be surprised to find that I consider religious ideas as transferable across populations as DNA.  Indeed, they can can be easier to spread (peacefully or un) as genes.

All religions, including Islam, are in denial about that.  They simply can't admit fallacy nor borrowing.  Voltaire said something nasty about that.
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