Author Topic: First Church of AI ...  (Read 6844 times)

Offline Cavebear

Re: First Church of AI ...
« Reply #30 on: December 18, 2017, 08:50:58 AM »
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Part of the reason that AI accomplishments tend to be discounted as real intelligence (the AI effect) is because the AI doesn't accomplish the given task in any way resembling the way a human would accomplish the same task. Deep Blue didn't beat Kasparov the way a human did. Deep Blue didn't calculate in terms of strategies and goals and looking a hundred moves ahead in a likely cone of responses like a human player would. Deep Blue looked typically somewhere around ten moves ahead, achieving twenty moves ahead in some cases. It never "thought" about the endgame except when it encountered it on its normal brute force search. It also thought in terms of scoring based on the value of pieces in particular positions. This is a completely foreign way of thinking for chess players in general. A chess game played by humans is as much White's creation as it is Black's, and this is not what happens in a match against Deep Blue — the computer's move is very much a mere response to the human's, however sophisticated that response may be.

The term "artificial intelligence" conjures up images of a robot speaking and moving in a manner indistinguishable from a human. We would be making a human intelligence, just by artificial means, and in a way, I tend to think that AI is part of the search for what makes humans intelligent, and this does not seem to be what AI research is producing. This is, on the whole, what puts people off calling AI "intelligent."

I i no way mean to diminish your post, but only to give an example of human thought.

When I was President of the University of Maryland Chess Club, we had this weird guy who would come in occasionally.  He would smoke a joint and be unbeatable.  He said he "saw all the pieces moving many moves ahead".  And in a quarter of the board (where he focussed) he could get around him. 

Then we realized we could drive him to distraction by merely moving a pawn on the other side.  He would totally lose it then, LOL! 

But he was utter death wherever he could focus.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline SGOS

Re: First Church of AI ...
« Reply #31 on: December 18, 2017, 10:35:48 AM »
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I i no way mean to diminish your post, but only to give an example of human thought.

When I was President of the University of Maryland Chess Club, we had this weird guy who would come in occasionally.  He would smoke a joint and be unbeatable.  He said he "saw all the pieces moving many moves ahead".  And in a quarter of the board (where he focussed) he could get around him. 

Then we realized we could drive him to distraction by merely moving a pawn on the other side.  He would totally lose it then, LOL! 

But he was utter death wherever he could focus.
I maybe the world's worst chess player, so what do I know.  I knew what moves each piece were allowed to do, and I had read somewhere that the strategy was to think ahead, and plan your attack, which I tried to do.  A friend and I, both utter novices, would play and I think he would always beat me.  This was long ago.  I don't remember ever winning a game.  I may have, but I don't remember ever winning against anyone.  I would think ahead maybe 8 moves and imagine sacrificing a pawn to nail my opponents knight or bishop, only to have him make a move I didn't anticipate, which of course destroyed my plan.  Considering there are an infinite number of moves an opponent can make, it seemed impossible that planning ahead could accomplish anything at all, so I eventually lost interest in the game.

But the game still holds what seems to me an unsolvable mystery, a mystery beyond my comprehension, so I tend to hold the game in high regard.  I used to regularly go to the local YMCA to play basketball, but we would also swim in the pool, and occasionally play volleyball with serious players.  I enjoyed setting up the ball for my teammates.  Volleyball can actually be an engrossing delightful game when taken seriously.  But I digress.  In the lobby of the YMCA, there was a chess table, and you could check out the chess pieces at the main desk, and engage almost anyone hanging out in the lobby.  I never played, but occasionally others would.

One day, a bunch of us went to the Y, and one of my friends brought a guest, a guy I didn't know who challenged someone in our group to a game of chess, and they began to play, and this new guy would make short work of whoever he played in our group, and soon he attracted a group of onlookers from the crowd in the lobby, and eventually a stranger in the mob politely asked him if he could play him.  The stranger was wearing a military uniform.  I think he was a marine, but he was unshaven and disheveled, like a bum.  He was probably ex-military and was 30 years older than the rest of us.  The new guy accepted the challenge and the marine sat down across of him, and politely, almost humbly, asked, "Would you be offended if I spotted you one of my pieces?"  The new guy in our group thoughtfully considered, and replied, "No, go ahead and spot me a piece," and the marine immediately removed his queen from the board.  The onlookers all got hushed as I recall.  At least I was hushed.  I think that marine beat the new guy in less than 10 moves, but it was long ago.  Our group left the lobby to go play basketball.

On the way out, the marine was playing someone else, but no pieces were spotted, and instead of making quick moves that he made before, each was engaged in serious deliberation.  It seemed like a meeting of the minds on a level beyond anything I could understand.  I don't know how long they kept it up.  Our group left and went home for dinner.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2017, 10:40:51 AM by SGOS »

Offline Cavebear

Re: First Church of AI ...
« Reply #32 on: December 18, 2017, 12:05:57 PM »
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I maybe the world's worst chess player, so what do I know.  I knew what moves each piece were allowed to do, and I had read somewhere that the strategy was to think ahead, and plan your attack, which I tried to do.  A friend and I, both utter novices, would play and I think he would always beat me.  This was long ago.  I don't remember ever winning a game.  I may have, but I don't remember ever winning against anyone.  I would think ahead maybe 8 moves and imagine sacrificing a pawn to nail my opponents knight or bishop, only to have him make a move I didn't anticipate, which of course destroyed my plan.  Considering there are an infinite number of moves an opponent can make, it seemed impossible that planning ahead could accomplish anything at all, so I eventually lost interest in the game.

But the game still holds what seems to me an unsolvable mystery, a mystery beyond my comprehension, so I tend to hold the game in high regard.  I used to regularly go to the local YMCA to play basketball, but we would also swim in the pool, and occasionally play volleyball with serious players.  I enjoyed setting up the ball for my teammates.  Volleyball can actually be an engrossing delightful game when taken seriously.  But I digress.  In the lobby of the YMCA, there was a chess table, and you could check out the chess pieces at the main desk, and engage almost anyone hanging out in the lobby.  I never played, but occasionally others would.

One day, a bunch of us went to the Y, and one of my friends brought a guest, a guy I didn't know who challenged someone in our group to a game of chess, and they began to play, and this new guy would make short work of whoever he played in our group, and soon he attracted a group of onlookers from the crowd in the lobby, and eventually a stranger in the mob politely asked him if he could play him.  The stranger was wearing a military uniform.  I think he was a marine, but he was unshaven and disheveled, like a bum.  He was probably ex-military and was 30 years older than the rest of us.  The new guy accepted the challenge and the marine sat down across of him, and politely, almost humbly, asked, "Would you be offended if I spotted you one of my pieces?"  The new guy in our group thoughtfully considered, and replied, "No, go ahead and spot me a piece," and the marine immediately removed his queen from the board.  The onlookers all got hushed as I recall.  At least I was hushed.  I think that marine beat the new guy in less than 10 moves, but it was long ago.  Our group left the lobby to go play basketball.

On the way out, the marine was playing someone else, but no pieces were spotted, and instead of making quick moves that he made before, each was engaged in serious deliberation.  It seemed like a meeting of the minds on a level beyond anything I could understand.  I don't know how long they kept it up.  Our group left and went home for dinner.

Spotting a Queen is a bit arrogant, but if you can back it up...

I remember a 12 year old chess genius visiting our club once.  He didn't spot pieces, but he played weird defenses as Black until the White opponent had little left.  And 3 moves and you were dead. 

BTW, "President Of The Chess Club" meant I could get boards on tables and manage tournies.  In spite of years of play and study, I'm barely in the top 50% of rated players.  I do have one trophy though.

I can't even beat the computer these days.  Brilliant combinations are the first thing to go as you age.

My favorite chess quote is from a Russian Grandmaster who almost but never quite became the World Champ:  "Sometimes I forget my opponents have good ideas too".  I hope it was Tal, because I can't spell any of the others.  LOL!
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline SGOS

Re: First Church of AI ...
« Reply #33 on: December 18, 2017, 12:20:48 PM »
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Spotting a Queen is a bit arrogant, but if you can back it up...

I remember a 12 year old chess genius visiting our club once.  He didn't spot pieces, but he played weird defenses as Black until the White opponent had little left.  And 3 moves and you were dead. 

BTW, "President Of The Chess Club" meant I could get boards on tables and manage tournies.  In spite of years of play and study, I'm barely in the top 50% of rated players.  I do have one trophy though.

I can't even beat the computer these days.  Brilliant combinations are the first thing to go as you age.

My favorite chess quote is from a Russian Grandmaster who almost but never quite became the World Champ:  "Sometimes I forget my opponents have good ideas too".  I hope it was Tal, because I can't spell any of the others.  LOL!
Ha!  I remember that new guy in our group thoughtfully deliberating each of his moves, while that marine would respond each time in what almost seemed like immediate thoughtless responses.  I remember that mob of interested onlookers hovering around the table like wolves waiting for the kill.  Right away, the lobby knew something big was going to happen.  I don't have a clue what was going on in the player's minds.  That game is a mystery to me.

Edit:  One of my favorite films is Searching for Bobby Fischer.  It bombed at the box office, I think, but is now a classic.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2017, 02:17:23 PM by SGOS »

Offline Cavebear

Re: First Church of AI ...
« Reply #34 on: December 18, 2017, 12:41:59 PM »
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Ha!  I remember that new guy in our group thoughtfully deliberating each of his moves, while that marine would respond each time in what almost seemed like immediate thoughtless responses.  I remember that mob of interested onlookers hovering around the table like wolves waiting for the kill.  Right away, the lobby knew something big was going to happen.  I don't have a clue what was going on in the player's minds.  That game is a mystery to me.

Edit:  One of my favorite films is Waiting for Bobby Fischer.  It bombed at the box office, I think, but is now a classic.

An experienced player (like your marine) has seen so many moves that few can surprise him.  Ans especially if they play White and know a lot of opening moves.  But there is also a something to be said for native talent.

Mon taught me the game.  I suppose it was obvious I was beyond Candyland and Sorry.  When she couldn't beat me, she turned me over to Dad who was very good at almost any game.  When I was 12, I quit playing because he couldn't win.  I found another chess-player my age and we went at it relentlessly.

I learned in College that I didn't have the talent to advance further.   knew ll the openings, but lacked the imagination.  I remember reading of Bobby Fischer being told suddenly by his teacher to move a knight on every square one but never twice, and he just DID it. 

I can't do that even now.  Sort of like solving a Rubic's Cube.  You "get it" or you don't.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline SGOS

Re: First Church of AI ...
« Reply #35 on: December 18, 2017, 12:50:36 PM »
I always imagined that my utterly stupid moves on the chess table might confuse a good player.  In reality, he would more likely conclude that he was playing a moron early in the process and just adopt some new strategy based on ignoring me as if he were playing a half empty chess board with no opponent in his way.

Offline Cavebear

Re: First Church of AI ...
« Reply #36 on: December 18, 2017, 12:58:30 PM »
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I always imagined that my utterly stupid moves on the chess table might confuse a good player.  In reality, he would more likely conclude that he was playing a moron early in the process and just adopt some new strategy based on ignoring me as if he were playing a half empty chess board with no opponent in his way.

A chess-player's response to weird or confusing moves is the construct a solid defense or develop an attack on weak spots.  Bad moves don't confuse

But for a skilled player, they merely give opportunity. 

But don't ignore arrogance of a better player.  The very week after I won the MD Open tourney (in my rating group), I fell for a Fool's Mate in the DC Open and left the tourney in disgrace!  Sad but true.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline Baruch

Re: First Church of AI ...
« Reply #37 on: December 18, 2017, 01:50:39 PM »
I see what you two did here ;-)
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Offline Cavebear

Re: First Church of AI ...
« Reply #38 on: December 18, 2017, 02:11:02 PM »
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I see what you two did here ;-)

"Discuss chess"?
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline Baruch

Re: First Church of AI ...
« Reply #39 on: December 18, 2017, 07:30:29 PM »
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"Discuss chess"?

Interesting place to discuss.  Like guys hiding in the janitor's closet at HS to smoke reefers.
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Offline Cavebear

Re: First Church of AI ...
« Reply #40 on: March 05, 2018, 07:00:39 PM »
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Interesting place to discuss.  Like guys hiding in the janitor's closet at HS to smoke reefers.

My HS years were 'just" before reefers.  My sophomore college year I was asking "Am I high Yet?"  Man, if you have to ask you aren't? 

Best experience, walking out of a dorm room after "indulging" and leaning against the door frame.  Which was 2' away.  In MY mind, I spent an hour sinking slowly into a verdant forest listening to 'Stairway To Heaven'. 

From their POV, I just fell to the floor...  One never knows, do one?
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Re: First Church of AI ...
« Reply #41 on: March 05, 2018, 07:15:37 PM »
There's an annual contest to to see which programs are the most like a human, called the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login. There's even a prize for the most human human:



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I'm waiting for Trump to say: "We could easily stop all the wildfires from happening just by removing all the oxygen from the atmosphere."

Offline Cavebear

Re: First Church of AI ...
« Reply #42 on: March 08, 2018, 08:14:09 AM »
I expect the most human human reply was like "hey dude, s'up.  Pizza?
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline Baruch

Re: First Church of AI ...
« Reply #43 on: March 08, 2018, 01:42:53 PM »
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There's an annual contest to to see which programs are the most like a human, called the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login. There's even a prize for the most human human:



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Programs are written by programmers ... and they aren't very human ... usually autistic males.
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Re: First Church of AI ...
« Reply #44 on: March 08, 2018, 01:44:52 PM »
Are you saying that people plagued by autism are sub-human!?
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I'm waiting for Trump to say: "We could easily stop all the wildfires from happening just by removing all the oxygen from the atmosphere."

 

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