Indictments in Mueller Probe of Trump-Russia Collusion

[Cavebear]

Well, to give the devil his due (so to speak), Agnew was a crook, and Pence is not.  And he is worse than Trump in the sense that he would be capable of getting his christofascist agenda implemented, at least in part.  We saw him do that in Indiana, and I don't want to see that done in the rest of the country.

The inoculation here is a Democratic House and Senate in 2018 -- a big ask given the situation in the Senate and the gerrymandering in the House, but not impossible.

My thoughts and fears exactly...

[fencerider]

Chili if you think my response was disjointed it may be because of the time 1:30am when I made the post.

The point being that Manafort is not the completion of Mueller’s actions. He hasn’t said everything he knows. Nor has he even finished investigating. It’s way too early to say Trump is innocent.



The only way to change the make up of Congress is for people in republican territory to change their minds about their reps. The only way they will be convinced to change their minds is if they stop watching Fox Entertainment. fat chance of that... (never mind the fact that a Florida Fox affiliate was given the right to lie on the air by the Supreme Court in 2003)

[Cavebear]

Chili if you think my response was disjointed it may be because of the time 1:30am when I made the post.

The point being that Manafort is not the completion of Mueller’s actions. He hasn’t said everything he knows. Nor has he even finished investigating. It’s way too early to say Trump is innocent.



The only way to change the make up of Congress is for people in republican territory to change their minds about their reps. The only way they will be convinced to change their minds is if they stop watching Fox Entertainment. fat chance of that... (never mind the fact that a Florida Fox affiliate was given the right to lie on the air by the Supreme Court in 2003)

There are more investigations going on.  And more indictments to come.  Prosecutors climb the ladder slowly.  When they actually reach the Trump family (and they will), the fewmets will hit the windmill!    There will be nothing Trump will not do then. 

[Baruch]

There are more investigations going on.  And more indictments to come.  Prosecutors climb the ladder slowly.  When they actually reach the Trump family (and they will), the fewmets will hit the windmill!    There will be nothing Trump will not do then.

I await the jailing of the Kennedy family, the Bush family, the Clinton family and the Obama family.

[Cavebear]

I await the jailing of the Kennedy family, the Bush family, the Clinton family and the Obama family.

You have something against Reagan and Carter (no one could hate Ford)?

Down with political dynasties!  Bring back monarchy. 

[Baruch]

You have something against Reagan and Carter (no one could hate Ford)?

Down with political dynasties!  Bring back monarchy.

Now that ... was funny ;-)

Reagan's son was a prima ballerina.  No threat there.  And Billy Carter is unavailable for comment, thank G-d.

[chill98]

The point being that Manafort is not the completion of Mueller’s actions. He hasn’t said everything he knows. Nor has he even finished investigating. It’s way too early to say Trump is innocent.

Well, that is some peoples hope, that the investigation will reveal collusion.  I don't think it will based only on what Mueller has presented so far.  Absolutely nothing related to his mandate.

And your last sentence in this is what is truly alarming.  We are ALL supposed to be innocent until proven guilty. 

The only way to change the make up of Congress is for people in republican territory to change their minds about their reps. The only way they will be convinced to change their minds is if they stop watching Fox Entertainment. fat chance of that... (never mind the fact that a Florida Fox affiliate was given the right to lie on the air by the Supreme Court in 2003)

People that use Fox as the primary source do so because they are already in that mindset.  Fox doesnt convert viewers, viewers look for that which re-enforces what they all ready think. In general, none of us watches that which does not support what we already think/enjoy.  So to blame fox is a distortion of the reality; there is enough of an existing audience to make fox profitable.

Worse yet, cops and prosecutors can lie to targets of an investigation with impunity, yet Mueller has  charged people with lying to investigators.  There is a nexflix doc series called something like 'Confessions' about how innocent people sometimes confess to crimes they did not commit due to pressure and psychology.  There are many people who plea down to lesser charges just to get the process over with, mostly due to the cost of legal defense, which would include the cost to your employment.

I am going to guess here that if you swapped out the name Trump and put Obama in its place, you would not feel so good about Muellers investigation.

[Baruch]

Any politician is guilty, the only question is guilty about what?

Haha ... guilty until proven innocent?  How naive.  Then it suites the authorities, they claim that, when it doesn't suit them, they claim the opposite, and give casuistry as to the apparent inconsistency.

Of course the authorities can lie.  It is right there in Plato's Republic.  In fact, all things that are illicit to the public, is licit to the State.  The art of civilization is confining  the lying, fraud, theft, assault and murder ... to official actions by the State.  That is what suppression of crime is all about.  But who will enforce the law on the Law?  Nobody has ever found a solution for the conundrum.

[fencerider]

you mean lie like Plato’s real name is Aristocles?

unfortunately you are right Baruch. There are very few laws passed that apply to Congress, wonder why....

Maybe the solution is for Congress to write the laws for the people and the people write the laws for Congress.


well Chili a few people around Trump already got in trouble. It maybe that it wasnt Trump that was contacting Russia about the election. But part of Mueller’s investigation would have to include looking at Trump’s finances to verify that he didn’t receive any benefits from the Russians during the election. It is a known fact that Russians laundered money through New York real estate. The lawyers working for Mueller (top 16 financial lawyers in the U.S.) suggests they are looking to see if Trump was involved. In other words he may go down for something accidentally discovered by Mueller. Its looking like Trump did launder money and he did it good enough that he would have got away with it if he wasn’t dumb enough to run for president.

[fencerider]

hmmm

Mr Obama red line in the sand. A really stupid thing to say. Considering that no military action can be made without approval by Congress. He should have got military action approved by Congress before saying that.

We made some kind of agreement with Egypt for jet fighters. Then the government of Egypt was overthrown. Even though the government we made the agreement with no longer existed Obama still gave the jets to Egypt. That was a dumbunny move.

Obama was fighting for TPP. Even though the base of the Democratic party was strongly opposed to the TPP he kept trying to convince everyone it is a good idea.

The Korean trade agreement will cost some people their jobs and has already added billions to the trade deficit

Feel free to add to the list

[Baruch]

you mean lie like Plato’s real name is Aristocles?

unfortunately you are right Baruch. There are very few laws passed that apply to Congress, wonder why....

Maybe the solution is for Congress to write the laws for the people and the people write the laws for Congress.


well Chili a few people around Trump already got in trouble. It maybe that it wasnt Trump that was contacting Russia about the election. But part of Mueller’s investigation would have to include looking at Trump’s finances to verify that he didn’t receive any benefits from the Russians during the election. It is a known fact that Russians laundered money through New York real estate. The lawyers working for Mueller (top 16 financial lawyers in the U.S.) suggests they are looking to see if Trump was involved. In other words he may go down for something accidentally discovered by Mueller. Its looking like Trump did launder money and he did it good enough that he would have got away with it if he wasn’t dumb enough to run for president.

Platon was a nick name meaning "broad shouldered".  Aristocles as a writer's name was bad press in democratic Athens.  It means "the best glory" but alliterates with aristocrat.  Which is what he was, a rich punk who didn't have to work for a living, but be a policy wonk.

Laundering money is routine for the upper class.  How much money does Apple park outside the US to avoid taxes?  Laws are for you or me, not them.

[Baruch]

hmmm

Mr Obama red line in the sand. A really stupid thing to say. Considering that no military action can be made without approval by Congress. He should have got military action approved by Congress before saying that.

We made some kind of agreement with Egypt for jet fighters. Then the government of Egypt was overthrown. Even though the government we made the agreement with no longer existed Obama still gave the jets to Egypt. That was a dumbunny move.

Obama was fighting for TPP. Even though the base of the Democratic party was strongly opposed to the TPP he kept trying to convince everyone it is a good idea.

The Korean trade agreement will cost some people their jobs and has already added billions to the trade deficit

Feel free to add to the list

Trump now admits he only does what his banker-owners and military junta in civies tell him to do or say.  The US has been at war continuously since 1941.  Thanks Empire of Japan .. for that and anime!  The US doesn't belong to the People, never did.  And yes, starting an almost war with Russia in Ukraine and in Syria, and messing up of Libya and Egypt (Color revolutions courtesy of Soros) ... was such good foreign policy.  But then Obama reads stuff he is told to read, better than Trump.

[Cavebear]

Peace between major wars is often enforced by the best-placed nation in the previous wars.  In the case of post WWII, it has been a Pax US.  It won't last forever and it is probably fading now. 

I wouldn't count out the US just yet.  There have been rumors of its decline before.  Japan was sure to overtake it, then Germany, then Brazil.  It may be that China will, but they are stretched a bit thin internally and may fade.

It is worth remembering that the US has technology, democracy, innovation, population, and geography on it its side still. 

And that Trump is a temporary abberration...  Or at least we should ALL hope.

[Baruch]

Peace between major wars is often enforced by the best-placed nation in the previous wars.  In the case of post WWII, it has been a Pax US.  It won't last forever and it is probably fading now. 

I wouldn't count out the US just yet.  There have been rumors of its decline before.  Japan was sure to overtake it, then Germany, then Brazil.  It may be that China will, but they are stretched a bit thin internally and may fade.

It is worth remembering that the US has technology, democracy, innovation, population, and geography on it its side still. 

And that Trump is a temporary abberration...  Or at least we should ALL hope.

Every non-American since 1918 hopes that American hegemony is an aberration.  Some people who post aren't Americans.

[fencerider]

what kind of war are you refering to Baruch? economic war since 1941? (scary that I have to learn from Baruch the things they didn’t teach in high school) If you mean military then you are off by a few. U.S. military has been in action somewhere in the world every single year since right after the end of the Civl War... ðŸ¤"maybe a connection to American exceptionalism - started around the same time