Author Topic: Indictments in Mueller Probe of Trump-Russia Collusion  (Read 718 times)

Offline Sylar (OP)

Indictments in Mueller Probe of Trump-Russia Collusion
« on: October 30, 2017, 03:06:56 PM »
This info is taken from a twitter thread by Renato Mariotti. He's a candidate for Illinois Attorney General, formal federal prosecuter, and legal expert in media. Good info about indictments and how process works, + link to unsealed indictment of Manafort and Gates.

Quote
THREAD: My very preliminary / initial thoughts on the indictment of Paul Manafort and Richard Gates.

1/ The indictment of Manafort and Gates was just unsealed. You can view it here: https://www.justice.gov/file/1007271/download

2/ An indictment is a formal charge that has been approved on by a grand jury, which are a group ordinary citizens who hear evidence..

3/ In the United States, you have a constitutional right to be charged by indictment if you are being charged with a felony.

4/ The indictment charges Paul Manafort and Richard Gates with multiple felonies. A felony is a crime punishable by over a year in prison.

5/ The indictment charges the men with a number of different crimes. I'm going to walk through them in this thread.

6/ Indictments list the allegations that the government is making and the specific laws that have been violated.

7/ This indictment is something called a "speaking indictment" -- instead of just saying the charges, it lists specific factual allegations.

8/ Certain crimes (like conspiracy) require the government to explain exactly what the defendants did and what the conspiracy was about.

9/ Prosecutors gain a couple of advantages from charging crimes like conspiracy. First, they get to give the jury a road map of the case.

10/ The jury gets to bring the indictment back into the jury room when they deliberate after a trial.

11/ Conspiracy charges also let prosecutors bring in a broader range of activity into a single charge.

12/ Typically crimes involve a specific action or occur at a specific time. A conspiracy is an agreement to break the law and it is ongoing.

13/ So the first charge in this indictment is a conspiracy under 18 U.S.C. 371. That is a general federal conspiracy statute.

14/ If two people agree to commit a federal law and take a concrete step towards doing so (called an overt act), they've violated 371.

15/ Here, Manafort and Gates are charged with agreeing to defeat the lawful functions of the United States.

16/ This is a common charge in tax cases--I charged this statute myself in a tax case. It means they worked together to undermine the IRS.

17/ For instance, when you go out of your way to hide money and affirmatively make it hard for the IRS to enforce the law against you.

18/ You can read more about the basis of the conspiracy charge by reading the parts of the indictment references in paragraphs 38 and 39.

19/ The second crime is a conspiracy (agreement) to launder money. That's when you move money in order to promote *another* crime.

20/ I've told you before that money laundering is a challenge to prove because you need to show that other crime happened. Mueller did that.

21/ The other crime (it's called "specified unlawful activity") is a failure to register as a foreign agent. More on that later.

22/ The next crime is only against Manafort for failure to file a statement with the Treasury Department disclosing foreign bank accounts.

23/ As we've discussed often, prosecutors like narrow charges like this because they're easy to prove. Either you disclosed or not, period.

24/ The next crime charged is against only Gates for essentially the same thing. Failing to disclose foreign bank accounts.

25/ The next count is for failing to register as a foreign agent. The law requires that anyone working in the U.S. as an agent of a foreign

26/ government must register with the Attorney General. This is another narrow crime that can be very straightforward to prove.

27/ (Registration is important so our government can monitor what foreign governments are doing within the United States.)

28/ The next crime (Count 11, p. 27) is one of the most important and revealing. This charges false and misleading registration statements.

29/ I don't have time to list the statements here, but Mueller is affirmatively alleging that he can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that

30/ each one of those statements is false, which says something about the work that Manafort and Gates were doing and allegedly lied about.

31/ The next crime is just a different way of charging the same false statements, which are a violation of both statutes.

32/ Prosecutors sometimes charge the same crime multiple ways because what they have to prove under each statute is slightly different.

33/ The last part of the indictment is something called the "Forfeiture Allegation." If property is acquired from unlawful activity, or

34/ if it is used in unlawful activity, it can be "forfeited" (taken) by the federal government. That forfeiture has to be alleged too.

35/ Here the government lists various property that they will try to forfeit as well as "substitute property" that they can take if the

36/ listed property is no longer available because it was sold or transferred.

37/ I have many, many more thoughts on this indictment but this is a starting point. I will have more threads today and will be on TV a lot.

38/ I read your comments and questions, even if I can't respond to all of them, and I'll try to answer them later today. /end
"To live is the rarest thing in the world. Most people exist, that is all." --Oscar Wilde

Offline Sylar (OP)

Re: Indictments in Mueller Probe of Trump-Russia Collusion
« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2017, 03:09:50 PM »
George Papadopoulos Stipulation and Plea Agreement
https://www.lawfareblog.com/george-papadopoulos-stipulation-and-plea-agreement

Notable passages:

"In truth and in fact, however, and as set forth above, defendant PAPADOPOULOS met the Professor for the first time on or about March 14, 2016, after defendant PAPADOPOULOS had already learned he would be a foreign policy advisor for the Campaign; the Professor showed interest in defendant PAPADOPOULOS only after learning of his role on the Campaign; and the Professor told defendant PAPADOPOULOS about the Russians possessing" dirt" on then-candidate Clinton in late April 2016, more than a month after defendant PAPADOPOULOS had joined the Campaign."

"On or about April 26, 2016, defendant PAPADOPOULOS met the Professor for breakfast at a London hotel. During this meeting, the Professor told defendant PAPADOPOULOS that he had just returned from a trip to Moscow where he had met with high-level Russian government officials. The Professor told defendant PAPADOPOULOS that on that trip he (the Professor) learned that the Russians had obtained "dirt" on then-candidate Clinton. The Professor told defendant PAPADOPOULOS, as defendant PAPADOPOULOS later described to the FBI, that "They [the Russians] have dirt on her"; "the Russians had emails of Clinton"; "they have thousands of emails."


In other words, we now know:

1- "The Professor" only expressed interest in Papadopoulos AFTER it became clear that the latter would play a role in Trump campaign as a foreign policy adviser.

2- Papadopoulos lied about the timing of his interactions with "The Professor." Those lies were aimed at suggesting that interactions came BEFORE he was an adviser to the Trump campaign. In fact, those interactions occurred BECAUSE Papadopoulos worked for Trump.

3- Interactions occurred because of promise of "dirt" on Clinton by "The Professor".

4- Papadopoulos seems to have been cooperating with Mueller's investigation since July.

Trump may be able to dismiss Manafort with ease, but this one he will have a tough time with.
"To live is the rarest thing in the world. Most people exist, that is all." --Oscar Wilde

Offline Shiranu

Re: Indictments in Mueller Probe of Trump-Russia Collusion
« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2017, 06:52:26 PM »
Here's to hoping they keep chipping away, until they can bring his entire world crashing around him. Trump is endemic of nearly everything wrong with American society, so it will be sweet justice to watch it all implode in his face and hopefully discourage others from being so much like him.

My only fear is if he ever learns that his business and his name are both going to disappear at best and become reviled at worst he will try to take everyone else out with him. He seems like just the spiteful asshole to do that, which is... not good, when you consider he is now the most powerful man in the world. I fear that he is just morally vapid enough to do so, and that his followers have been fed so much hate and anger that they can be tricked into going along with it.

It only takes one spark to light a fire, and when you consider the power he still wields as president sparks are the last thing you want.
“Life isn't long enough to enjoy and understand all at the same time. You have to decide which is more important." - Pedro Juan Gutierrez

"Too much sanity may be madness and the maddest of all, to see life as it is and not as it should be." - Miguel de Cervantes

Offline Baruch

Re: Indictments in Mueller Probe of Trump-Russia Collusion
« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2017, 07:01:03 PM »
Natasha - Hillary and Boris - Bill are done too.  Every American can be bought, all are traitors.
שלום

Offline Sylar (OP)

Re: Indictments in Mueller Probe of Trump-Russia Collusion
« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2017, 11:49:16 PM »
Natasha - Hillary and Boris - Bill are done too.  Every American can be bought, all are traitors.

Keep this thread void of conspiracy theories, and in strict adherence to the facts.

Cite your allegations please.
"To live is the rarest thing in the world. Most people exist, that is all." --Oscar Wilde

Re: Indictments in Mueller Probe of Trump-Russia Collusion
« Reply #5 on: October 31, 2017, 12:27:55 AM »
Manafort is facing a maximum sentence of 181 months. Gates is facing a maximum sentence of 151 months.

I wish I could hang out in Trump country to watch their brains melting down🤠

another quote from an antagonist agnostic: not expecting god to show up, but if he does we’re going to have to beat the prick up.

Offline Shiranu

Re: Indictments in Mueller Probe of Trump-Russia Collusion
« Reply #6 on: October 31, 2017, 12:29:18 AM »
Manafort is facing a maximum sentence of 181 months. Gates is facing a maximum sentence of 151 months.

I wish I could hang out in Trump country to watch their brains melting down🤠



For treason, they should be praising every known god in existence that those numbers aren't the minimum mandatory.


Wonder when Gilga is going to pop in here to inform us this is all fake news, and Trump never did a wrong deed in his life...
« Last Edit: October 31, 2017, 12:57:05 AM by Shiranu »
“Life isn't long enough to enjoy and understand all at the same time. You have to decide which is more important." - Pedro Juan Gutierrez

"Too much sanity may be madness and the maddest of all, to see life as it is and not as it should be." - Miguel de Cervantes

Offline Cavebear

Re: Indictments in Mueller Probe of Trump-Russia Collusion
« Reply #7 on: October 31, 2017, 01:02:07 AM »
Natasha - Hillary and Boris - Bill are done too.  Every American can be bought, all are traitors.

They haven't tried to buy me yet, and no luck to them if they do.  Failure, failure, failure.  I don't have a price.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!  b 1950

Offline Baruch

Re: Indictments in Mueller Probe of Trump-Russia Collusion
« Reply #8 on: October 31, 2017, 07:11:02 AM »
Keep this thread void of conspiracy theories, and in strict adherence to the facts.

Cite your allegations please.

Have you ever been to Washington DC?  If not, you don't know it exists, for a fact ;-)

And I am sure, there will be many posts, of people here, who know insider CIA, on how the Republicans are Reptilians etc.  Good luck keeping anything political, to the facts.
שלום

Offline Baruch

Re: Indictments in Mueller Probe of Trump-Russia Collusion
« Reply #9 on: October 31, 2017, 07:12:41 AM »
Manafort is facing a maximum sentence of 181 months. Gates is facing a maximum sentence of 151 months.

I wish I could hang out in Trump country to watch their brains melting down🤠

Notice the non-fact of the OP title .. reads that Trump is indicted.  Manafort may be guilty.  And law may be applied selectively (seems undeniable).  Nothing about D party actions in the Ukraine, or with Russia.  Wonder why?
שלום

Offline Baruch

Re: Indictments in Mueller Probe of Trump-Russia Collusion
« Reply #10 on: October 31, 2017, 07:13:36 AM »
For treason, they should be praising every known god in existence that those numbers aren't the minimum mandatory.


Wonder when Gilga is going to pop in here to inform us this is all fake news, and Trump never did a wrong deed in his life...

In Southern states, they have ridiculous long sentencing.  But we only apply it to liberals and other damn yankees ;-)
שלום

Offline Baruch

Re: Indictments in Mueller Probe of Trump-Russia Collusion
« Reply #11 on: October 31, 2017, 07:14:39 AM »
They haven't tried to buy me yet, and no luck to them if they do.  Failure, failure, failure.  I don't have a price.

You were a decent civil servant.  Those exist, I know some.  But neither of us function at the higher echelons.  I didn't get one million dollar donations from Qatar.
שלום

Offline Cavebear

Re: Indictments in Mueller Probe of Trump-Russia Collusion
« Reply #12 on: October 31, 2017, 08:34:58 AM »
You were a decent civil servant.  Those exist, I know some.  But neither of us function at the higher echelons.  I didn't get one million dollar donations from Qatar.

I never suspected you did. 
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!  b 1950

Offline Baruch

Re: Indictments in Mueller Probe of Trump-Russia Collusion
« Reply #13 on: October 31, 2017, 01:06:58 PM »
I never suspected you did.

Some facts .... a cast of bad characters with small degrees of separation

President - Donald Trump (NYC business tycoon)
Lobbyist and campaign manager for Donald Trump - Paul Manafort (associate of Tony Podesta)
Lobbyist - Tony Podesta (Podesta Group and brother of John Podesta)
President of Russia - Vladimir Putin (KGB and GQ model ;-)
Lobbyist and campaign manager for Hillary Clinton - John Podesta (Podesta Group and brother of Tony Podesta)
Former presidential candidate - Hillary Clinton (Carlyle Group)
Former President - Bill Clinton (Carlyle Group)
Former President - George H W Bush (Carlyle Group and CIA)
Former President - Barak Obama (former boss of Hillary Clinton)

These are all in the same mono-party ... Rape & Pillage Inc.  Follow the money ... there is no such thing as art trading as money laundering, nor quid pro quo donations to the Clinton Foundation (Think of the Children).

Current evidence is that the Russians expected Hillary to win, and on FB etc did what they could to help her campaign indirectly, not help Donald  She was plan A.  Trump was plan B.  But either way the Deep State has told Trump how to do things, and so far, he is doing it.  The Russians are guilty of not interfering enough, because with President Hillary, you would never hear of Uranium One.
שלום

Offline Cavebear

Re: Indictments in Mueller Probe of Trump-Russia Collusion
« Reply #14 on: October 31, 2017, 01:20:51 PM »
Some facts .... a cast of bad characters with small degrees of separation

President - Donald Trump (NYC business tycoon)
Lobbyist and campaign manager for Donald Trump - Paul Manafort (associate of Tony Podesta)
Lobbyist - Tony Podesta (Podesta Group and brother of John Podesta)
President of Russia - Vladimir Putin (KGB and GQ model ;-)
Lobbyist and campaign manager for Hillary Clinton - John Podesta (Podesta Group and brother of Tony Podesta)
Former presidential candidate - Hillary Clinton (Carlyle Group)
Former President - Bill Clinton (Carlyle Group)
Former President - George H W Bush (Carlyle Group and CIA)
Former President - Barak Obama (former boss of Hillary Clinton)

These are all in the same mono-party ... Rape & Pillage Inc.  Follow the money ... there is no such thing as art trading as money laundering, nor quid pro quo donations to the Clinton Foundation (Think of the Children).

Current evidence is that the Russians expected Hillary to win, and on FB etc did what they could to help her campaign indirectly, not help Donald  She was plan A.  Trump was plan B.  But either way the Deep State has told Trump how to do things, and so far, he is doing it.  The Russians are guilty of not interfering enough, because with President Hillary, you would never hear of Uranium One.

When you can only condemn Obama as "former boss of Hillary Clinton", you are really digging to the bottom of the barrel there.  LOL!

Name a country that wouldn't prefer Clinton has either Sec of State or President right now.  Aside from Iraq, N Korea, Russia, and China, of course.   THEY love tRump and Tillersoneeyore ... 

And for very good reasons.  ;)
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!  b 1950