Like Ibn says, the origins of Islam isn't what is claimed ...

[Baruch]

What he claims, and what pr126 claim, are based on early Caliphate hagiography and propaganda from the founding of Baghdad by the Abbasid revolutionaries around 750 CE ...

Actual evidence from the earliest Quran fragments which have no vowels and no clear interpretation, which do date to around 650 CE ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6C3DuLnUh7w

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_sv5tPlnng

The Sunna/Hadith are shown to be fakes, and that the origins are in a heretical Christian sect out of Petra, not out of Mecca.  Islam didn't exist as we know it, before 750 CE.  The apologetic is that the true text isn't a written thing, but thru people who have memorized the whole text from the beginning of the movement.

Supporting info:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNdvsLh128Q

A more recent find, but shows how hard it is to say .. the commentator is an apologist ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBonpvDgu6I

So get mad at Muhammad if you want, but he appears to be a non-historical person, same as Jesus and Moses.  Umar the conquering Caliph was real, and the latter Umayyad and Abbasid caliphs are the successive inventors of a state religion, same as Constantine.  The first Caliphs are shown to be Christian Arabs ... just as the Byzantines at that time, claimed.  Heretics relative to Byzantium.  It was during the Riddah, the early civil wars of the Arabs, that the capital was moved from Petra, to Damascus, to Baghdad.  It was only after 750 CE that mosques pointed to Mecca, which was shown not to exist in olden time maps of Arabia.  In an ironic sense, the Shi'ites are shown to be correct .. if we accept that Ali was a Christian Arab.

[pr126]

Did Muhammad Exist?: An Inquiry into Islam's Obscure Origins

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jorBwia9yFw

[Baruch]

Two corrections ...

There were earlier Quran fragments, but no Muhammad, no Mecca

There was no historical Jesus or Moses

[pr126]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMJRsd8SrhU

[Baruch]

That Islam started as an Arabic Christian heresy, doesn't bother me though.  It became its own predatory political/military system very quickly.  And Christianity whether Byzantine, Coptic, Armenian, Ethiopic or Syriac ... was itself a Jewish heresy.  And the Judaism of Ezra was itself a heresy of its time and place.  Things only progress thru heresy, not thru orthodoxy.  But orthodoxy is necessary so that religion can serve the secular authority.

[fencerider]

what does the heresy of Baruch being a demi-god progress into?

btw: I just picked up the Oxford translation of the Quran for $6. Be the first time readin it for me. I dont know if it will be entertainment or if I will say these po folk is CRaZy.

[Cavebear]

Two corrections ...

There were earlier Quran fragments, but no Muhammad, no Mecca

There was no historical Jesus or Moses

What a shock!  You actually agree with what I've been saying for 50 years...

[Baruch]

what does the heresy of Baruch being a demi-god progress into?

btw: I just picked up the Oxford translation of the Quran for $6. Be the first time readin it for me. I dont know if it will be entertainment or if I will say these po folk is CRaZy.

I went back to the original heresy, men walking upright.  Accept no derivatives.  Super-cave-man!  Monotheism is a heresy, for people who are arithmetic challenged.  David says "you are gods" ... and nobody listens to Psalm 82:6 ;-)  Jesus then quotes it in John 10:34.  The stupid theologians are too scared to even touch that one.

Even Muslims don't know what the Quran is, or what it means.  Think of Medieval Christians or Medieval Jews.  It is an idolatry, like all other writings.

Well independent scholarship will tell you that the Quran is a pastiche reworked by Caliph Uthman, and repurposed/interpreted by the later Abbasid caliphs in Baghdad.  Except the Medinah of Muhammad or Uthman ... wasn't Mecca.  Mecca was an invention of those Abbasid caliphs.

What genre is the Quran?  It is like a cross between Proverbs and Psalms ... and like those, was meant to be memorized.  And some Muslims still do that.  It used to be that a pious Jew would memorize the Psalms.  One difference though, the Quran is written as if G-d is speaking, not an inspired prophet (so it claims).  The Muslim propagandists did one better than the Jews or Christians.  Rather than an inspired human writing, the Quran is G-d writing on the tablets on Mt Sinai, the ones that Moses broke.  Petra (the city) is very near where the original story of Moses/Aaron happened, in Midian.  In Muslim mythology (yes they have some) the original Quran was written by G-d, kept in Heaven, and Moses didn't break them or write them.

Atheists simply channel Epicurus, who died of constipation.

[Baruch]

What a shock!  You actually agree with what I've been saying for 50 years...

Who's on first, what's on second?

[Cavebear]

Who's on first, what's on second?

I Don't Know.  You again make jokes at the expense of any useful discussion.  And you will probably do that Yesterday, Today, and Tomorrow.  And Because.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=yesterday+today+and+tomorrow+abbott%ee%80%81+and+%ee%80%80costello&qpvt=yesterday+today+and+tomorrow+abbott%ee%80%81+and+%ee%80%80costello&view=detail&mid=C6ACDBD452CC12B3C3F2C6ACDBD452CC12B3C3F2&FORM=VRDGAR

[Baruch]

You know Bing?  Well let me Crosby you ;-)

[Cavebear]

You know Bing?  Well let me Crosby you ;-)

I met his son once.  At an airport.  Sad guy...  THEN he left for first class and *I* had a kid kicking the back of my chair in coach.

[suni_muslim]

Your words are lies
The Islamic religion has manuscripts dating back to the era of Muhammad
This is a manuscript
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birmingham_Quran_manuscript
This manuscript determines the chronological age of Muhammad's message
The Qur'an can never be distorted
The existence of one manuscript sufficient to determine the length of time
Why can not distort the Koran?
Quran words in words and tones
Quran calculated speech
There are words that are repeated with other words
So it can not be increased or decreased
for example
The repetition of the word of the world equals the number of repetitions of the last word
Repeating the word of the man 24 times equals the number of repetitions of the female word
Repeat the word of Satan
Equals the repetition of the number of seeking refuge in God 11 times
Repeat the word of the month equals 12 months of the year
The repetition of the word life equals the number of repetitions of the word death
Repeat the word of mind
Equals the frequency of the heart word
There are many words of equal frequency
Can not distort the Koran
And one manuscript proving the history of Islam
The question is how a person does not know the reader or the writing
To say such words
And to compose that Koran
The Qur'an has evidence of its credibility
It is the Word of God
Tell the reader about the rotation of the earth
He told about the darkness at the bottom of the ocean
 He was told that the mountains are pegs like a tent wedge
These things in this age only we have been able to know
I will follow Islam
Islam is the truth

[Baruch]

You have much to learn, camel flea of the desert sands.  But don't let that stop you ... you hopefully have much travel before you sleep.

[Munch]

It's always weird seeing incoherent religious babbling in text. I can understand it spoken, because its just random words and phrases mashed up and vomited out of someone's mouth, but when you go to that degree of incoherence in text, you just wonder, do they never proof read what they say to make it even somewhat legible?