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Gun Control

Started by joebialek, October 23, 2017, 07:58:26 PM

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trdsf

Quote from: Hydra009 on October 30, 2017, 11:39:05 AM
Why gun control will fail in the foreseeable future in two graphs:
I dunno, I see a fair amount of low-hanging fruit here.  There are majorities on both sides on the first four items, and majorities on both sides opposing the last (allowing concealed carry without a permit).  We can at least tighten up the rules on where there is consensus.

I mean, we (as a nation) probably won't, thanks to the hysterical and over-wrought shrieking by the NRA and the money they'll fire-hose at Washington to prevent even the most common-sense steps -- but without their bull-headed interference, these are things we could do with minimal problem and definite public support.

"My faith in the Constitution is whole, it is complete, it is total, and I am not going to sit here and be an idle spectator to the diminution, the subversion, the destruction of the Constitution." -- Barbara Jordan

Hydra009

Quote from: trdsf on October 30, 2017, 12:30:29 PM
I dunno, I see a fair amount of low-hanging fruit here.  There are majorities on both sides on the first four items, and majorities on both sides opposing the last (allowing concealed carry without a permit).  We can at least tighten up the rules on where there is consensus.
Yeah, but that's really, really obvious and minor stuff.  Stuff like not letting mentally ill people to carry guns.  Who in the world could possibly be against that?

But when you talk about any major attempt to reign this stuff in, gun owners have a panic attack.  Sure they might say they're on board with this or that measure (words are cheap), but the moment it's written on a bill (and the NRA ads start flying) all of a sudden it's the totalitarian government trying to take your guns so they can institute some sort of purge.  WTF.

At the end of the day, gun owners are far more politically active on this subject and politicians are more beholden to the NRA and gun nuts than decent people who just want to go about their lives without worrying about getting shot.  Unless that changes, progress will be minimal or nil.

trdsf

Quote from: Hydra009 on October 30, 2017, 12:42:54 PM
Yeah, but that's really, really obvious and minor stuff.  Stuff like not letting mentally ill people to carry guns.  Who in the world could possibly be against that?

But when you talk about any major attempt to reign this stuff in, gun owners have a panic attack.  Sure they might say they're on board with this or that measure (words are cheap), but the moment it's written on a bill (and the NRA ads start flying) all of a sudden it's the totalitarian government trying to take your guns so they can institute some sort of purge.  WTF.

At the end of the day, gun owners are far more politically active on this subject and politicians are more beholden to the NRA and gun nuts than decent people who just want to go about their lives without worrying about getting shot.  Unless that changes, progress will be minimal or nil.
So let's go ahead and do the obvious and minor and work our way toward the middling and then the major, and work to elect representatives who exhibit at least some independence of the NRA.  A small step is better than no step at all, and change isn't going to come all at once.
"My faith in the Constitution is whole, it is complete, it is total, and I am not going to sit here and be an idle spectator to the diminution, the subversion, the destruction of the Constitution." -- Barbara Jordan

Hydra009

Quote from: trdsf on October 30, 2017, 12:51:48 PMSo let's go ahead and do the obvious and minor and work our way toward the middling and then the major
We've tried that.  And here's the result.  All the seemingly common ground vanishes and we're left no better than when we started.

Quoteand work to elect representatives who exhibit at least some independence of the NRA
Now that's a good idea.  It goes without saying that NRA support is mostly across partisan lines.  We need to stop electing people who dangerously cling to God, guns, and xenophobia.

trdsf

Quote from: Hydra009 on October 30, 2017, 01:54:16 PM
We've tried that.  And here's the result.  All the seemingly common ground vanishes and we're left no better than when we started.
Well, the problem there is that the ones in favor of sensible gun laws don't turn up with the same ferocity as the NRA nuts.  So no, the common sense stuff wasn't tried because the non-common-sense folk overwhelmed the process.  We outnumber them, and we need to start acting like it.
"My faith in the Constitution is whole, it is complete, it is total, and I am not going to sit here and be an idle spectator to the diminution, the subversion, the destruction of the Constitution." -- Barbara Jordan

Jannabear

Quote from: Gawdzilla Sama on October 30, 2017, 05:41:11 AM
Meanwhile we have less than a million people owning 123,000,000 guns. That's something that needs to be addressed right now.
You aren't going to magic away those guns, no matter how much police action there is to try to get rid of them there will always be plenty enough guns for people to commit whatever violence they want.
Either go to the root of the violence or you don't address it at all

Shiranu

QuoteEither go to the root of the violence or you don't address it at all

I think if it saves even one family from suffering then it has been justifiably addressed. If you had a choice between your father, mother, brother, sister, wife, husband from being killed or not being killed by senseless violence that could have been prevented... I don't think they will argue against saving them because it, "didn't address the problem in it's entirety".
"A little science distances you from God, but a lot of science brings you nearer to Him." - Louis Pasteur

Hydra009

Quote from: Shiranu on October 30, 2017, 10:00:22 PM
I think if it saves even one family from suffering then it has been justifiably addressed. If you had a choice between your father, mother, brother, sister, wife, husband from being killed or not being killed by senseless violence that could have been prevented... I don't think they will argue against saving them because it, "didn't address the problem in it's entirety".
Yep.  Otherwise is essentially the Nirvana Fallacy - that one shouldn't undertake half-measures to address a problem because they don't completely solve the problem.

Cavebear

I read another report today showing that states with concealed gun allowances have increased gun deaths.  And the deaths aren't self-defence against criminals.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Baruch

Quote from: Hydra009 on October 30, 2017, 11:05:27 PM
Yep.  Otherwise is essentially the Nirvana Fallacy - that one shouldn't undertake half-measures to address a problem because they don't completely solve the problem.

Ends justify the means, for liberals and conservatives.  May they all burn in nuclear hell ;-(
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

SGOS

Quote from: Cavebear on October 31, 2017, 12:39:21 AM
I read another report today showing that states with concealed gun allowances have increased gun deaths.  And the deaths aren't self-defence against criminals.
I suppose there is some argument to justify concealed weapons, but I have yet to construct one for myself that stands up to reason.  In the old days, we went out in the corral and shot each other face to face like real men.  None of this sneaking around shit.

Cavebear

Quote from: Baruch on October 31, 2017, 06:55:51 AM
Ends justify the means, for liberals and conservatives.  May they all burn in nuclear hell ;-(

No.  Or I'm neither.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Cavebear

Quote from: SGOS on October 31, 2017, 08:46:50 AM
I suppose there is some argument to justify concealed weapons, but I have yet to construct one for myself that stands up to reason.  In the old days, we went out in the corral and shot each other face to face like real men.  None of this sneaking around shit.

Ah, the Old West.  Where cowboys entering town had to surrender their weapons to the Sheriff, seldom had gunfights, and "death by gun" was very low...  The good old days...
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Gawdzilla Sama

Quote from: Jannabear on October 30, 2017, 08:39:40 PM
You aren't going to magic away those guns, no matter how much police action there is to try to get rid of them there will always be plenty enough guns for people to commit whatever violence they want.
Either go to the root of the violence or you don't address it at all
Yeah, the old "we can't do nothing until we fix everything" argument.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Gawdzilla Sama

Quote from: SGOS on October 31, 2017, 08:46:50 AM
I suppose there is some argument to justify concealed weapons, but I have yet to construct one for myself that stands up to reason.  In the old days, we went out in the corral and shot each other face to face like real men.  None of this sneaking around shit.
You really believe the mano-a-mano gunfight was anything but a penny dreadful creation? Or is that a sarcasm fail for me?
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers