Author Topic: Gun Control  (Read 1104 times)

Re: Gun Control
« Reply #15 on: October 24, 2017, 09:13:27 PM »
If a case could ever be made that the only reason a people remained free was that it was armed, then we would be that case. Unfortunately, plenty of countries exist where they do indeed have the same freedom and better security with less armored populace.
Is this an argument for or against mass gun ownership?   :headscratch:

Offline Baruch

Re: Gun Control
« Reply #16 on: October 24, 2017, 10:23:02 PM »
Get people scared and angry enough, and you can get them to do anything you like.

That is what the CIA is counting on.

Americans aren't free, and neither are people in other countries.  With or without guns.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2017, 10:25:07 PM by Baruch »
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Offline SGOS

Re: Gun Control
« Reply #17 on: October 26, 2017, 08:47:39 AM »
Like fight tanks with F-350 Compensators?

The movie "Red Dawn" had my guys rolling in the aisles. High School kids wouldn't last five minutes against Spetznaz.
Red Dawn is a fantasy that takes itself too seriously and tries to pass as drama.  As fantasy it could have some merit.  An alliance with aliens from outer space would help take it out of the "stupid drama" category, and solidify it's place in legitimate fantasy.  But this is tricky.  It could also end up as a flop like Cowboys and Aliens.  At any rate, it has no place in serious drama.  Even with better direction and a different script, the premise is just a little too absurd.

Re: Gun Control
« Reply #18 on: October 26, 2017, 09:04:04 AM »
Red Dawn is a fantasy that takes itself too seriously and tries to pass as drama.  As fantasy it could have some merit.  An alliance with aliens from outer space would help take it out of the "stupid drama" category, and solidify it's place in legitimate fantasy.  But this is tricky.  It could also end up as a flop like Cowboys and Aliens.  At any rate, it has no place in serious drama.  Even with better direction and a different script, the premise is just a little too absurd.
Not absurd! A REAL AMERICAN can take on any number of commies, faggots, or government stooges!
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Offline SGOS

Re: Gun Control
« Reply #19 on: October 26, 2017, 09:35:01 AM »
Embarrassingly,  I was a member of the NRA once.  I joined on the urging of a coworker, who wanted to win an NRA prize for recruitment, which isn't extraordinary in itself.  Hell, the Boy Scouts and the Girl Scouts give out prizes for selling cookies and tickets to the Scout-O-Rama. 

I am/was not a joiner, but I was a hunter with a mild interest in reloading, and I had seen the NRA publication, The American Rifleman, which was not that interesting, but did provide a lot of information on ballistics.  As an alternative when joining, you could opt instead to receive The American Hunter, which centered around much more interesting stories of guys climbing around cliffs chasing mountain goats.  Why you couldn't get both publications, I never understood.

Back then, there was nothing about the publications that seemed strange or cult like.  I think the last page of each was devoted to short clips reminiscent of a small town paper's weekly arrests from the Sherriff's Office, it was centered around blowing away home intruders by a well armed citizenry; "Eighty year old lady kneecaps masked bandits sneaking around her porch; Earl Maynard shoots surprised assailant in head," but other than that, the rest of the publication was fairly responsible.

But once I became a dues paying member of the cult, I started receiving weird mail designed to prey upon the paranoia of the unarmed.  None of it was helpful on how to bag this Fall's big buck, or where to find the best hunting grounds.  It was basically about shooting people, a nation in chaos, and the only solution seemed to be an escalation of the paranoia and chaos.  I was a hunter in a small town of hunters, people who looked out for each other, and only shot each other by accident.  I was suddenly introduced to the truth that I lived in a savage society where I wasn't safe from my neighbors, and a bandit lurked behind every corner mailbox.

I decided the organization was aimed at crazy people, and was run by crazy people, and I quit, but kept receiving phone calls asking me to rejoin for years.  "Not Interested," was not good enough for them.  They could not accept that I didn't want to be a part of the cult.  And they are a cult in my opinion.  I was a hunter.  I could understand lobbying to protect game habitat, and protect our access to public land, and to manage healthy game populations, but I was stunned to come to find out that the real reason to own a gun is so you could blast a guy when you had to.

Re: Gun Control
« Reply #20 on: October 26, 2017, 10:40:37 AM »
The NRA wasn't deeply involved in politics until the mid 70's. It didn't really go hard right until after Reagan was elected in 80, and jumped off the cliff when Wayne LaPierre became CEO in 91.
Save a life. Adopt a Greyhound.


Offline trdsf

Re: Gun Control
« Reply #21 on: October 26, 2017, 10:54:05 AM »
I have a problem that gun ownership, at least in this state, requires fewer hoops to jump through than it takes to be my barber.  Which one's going to do more permanent damage if they make a mistake, a gun owner or the stylist at Great Clips?  There should be licensing and insurance requirements, just like for cars.  And lifetime ownership bans for anyone convicted of a violent crime -- particularly DV.
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning." -- Calvin and Hobbes
"I thought I committed regicide today, but I committed deicide!" -- Sadie Doyle, Beyond Belief

Re: Gun Control
« Reply #22 on: October 26, 2017, 11:36:17 AM »
I have a problem that gun ownership, at least in this state, requires fewer hoops to jump through than it takes to be my barber.  Which one's going to do more permanent damage if they make a mistake, a gun owner or the stylist at Great Clips?  There should be licensing and insurance requirements, just like for cars.  And lifetime ownership bans for anyone convicted of a violent crime -- particularly DV.
The reply for the "ardent gunners" is that this is a slippery slope issue. Each piece of seemingly innocuous legislation is part of a pre-planned series of steps designed to "take our guns away!"

Yep, it's a conspiracy theory.
We 'new atheists' have a reputation for being militant, but make no mistake  we didn't start this war. If you want to place blame put it on the the religious zealots who have been poisoning the minds of the  young for a long long time."
PZ Myers

Offline SGOS

Re: Gun Control
« Reply #23 on: October 26, 2017, 11:56:14 AM »
The NRA wasn't deeply involved in politics until the mid 70's. It didn't really go hard right until after Reagan was elected in 80, and jumped off the cliff when Wayne LaPierre became CEO in 91.
That fits from my perspective.  I joined back in the late 70s, so my limited knowledge of the organization was that it was just a group for gun owners, hunters, target shooters with an interest in competition, and those with an interest in guns as a recreation or hobby.  And I'm guessing that is what it started out to be.  Their main publication seemed to be directed at the highly technical aspects of marksmanship, bullet trajectories, and the relationships between bullet weight and powder loads.  About that time in society at large, there was also some political interest in taking guns out of the hands of criminals, which seems like a sensible idea.  I can't remember anyone in Montana being overly concerned about that kind of oversight.

For some reason, which I can only guess at, the NRA seized on the idea of gun control and used it to promote the fear that the government was coming to take our guns away, as if guys in black SUVs would be knocking on doors and storming your bedroom closets.  Still, few of my hunting and gun collecting friends were worried about the absurdity of the jack booted thugs taking away our possessions, but it was a meme that eventually caught traction to fight what appears to me to be a boogieman.  It became the central focus of the organization and a turning point in history where reason in a civilized society took a step backwards and turned into hysteria.

It reinforces my perception that freedom and democracy are fragile, and not a natural progression in the evolution of society.  The population can be controlled and weakened by fear and propaganda, which is a bit different than power mad politicians wanting to dictate our behavior, something we should be aware of to be sure, but is not the most important issue in holding on to our freedom and security.  The doubling down of the NRA wanting us to be armed in bars and schools seems extreme and contrary to my vision of freedom and peaceful coexistence in a sovereign state.

But it is what it is, and who knows where it will all lead?  We can only play the hand we are dealt and hope for the best.  But the hysteria is troublesome.  It's not a good environment that nurtures reason.

Offline Baruch

Re: Gun Control
« Reply #24 on: October 26, 2017, 12:28:07 PM »
Red Dawn is a fantasy that takes itself too seriously and tries to pass as drama.  As fantasy it could have some merit.  An alliance with aliens from outer space would help take it out of the "stupid drama" category, and solidify it's place in legitimate fantasy.  But this is tricky.  It could also end up as a flop like Cowboys and Aliens.  At any rate, it has no place in serious drama.  Even with better direction and a different script, the premise is just a little too absurd.

I liked Cowboys & Aliens ... reminded me of John Carter On Mars.
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Offline Baruch

Re: Gun Control
« Reply #25 on: October 26, 2017, 12:29:58 PM »
I have a problem that gun ownership, at least in this state, requires fewer hoops to jump through than it takes to be my barber.  Which one's going to do more permanent damage if they make a mistake, a gun owner or the stylist at Great Clips?  There should be licensing and insurance requirements, just like for cars.  And lifetime ownership bans for anyone convicted of a violent crime -- particularly DV.

Sorry, not a fan of state regulation of anything.  The state doing the regulating ... is idiots, same as the barbers and hairdressers.  Next thing you will be telling me barbers can't do elective surgery ;-)
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Offline Baruch

Re: Gun Control
« Reply #26 on: October 26, 2017, 12:38:46 PM »
The reply for the "ardent gunners" is that this is a slippery slope issue. Each piece of seemingly innocuous legislation is part of a pre-planned series of steps designed to "take our guns away!"

Yep, it's a conspiracy theory.

Holdover from the Civil War.  The Oath is against all enemies, foreign and domestic (originally Dumbs, now Rethugs).  The antigovernment folks have been out there since the George Washington admin.  It was just particularly bad in 1861.  It has gone up and down in intensity.  Part of it is driven by paranoia, partly by criminality, partly by rebellion.  Those will never go away.
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Offline SGOS

Re: Gun Control
« Reply #27 on: October 26, 2017, 12:55:35 PM »
The reply for the "ardent gunners" is that this is a slippery slope issue. Each piece of seemingly innocuous legislation is part of a pre-planned series of steps designed to "take our guns away!" 
It IS a slippery slope, and I know exactly where it started.  It was when Montana hunting licenses started to require a course in hunter safety and education for 12 year olds to get their first license.  That was 40 years ago, and now they require anyone born after 1985 to show a certificate of completion in hunter safety and education.  Talk about the government breathing down our necks at every turn.  Why back in 1776, a father would just take his 8 year old out in the woods and with an arm around his little shoulder, lovingly tell him not to shoot at movement in the bushes, unless he was 50% sure it wasn't uncle Jeb waking up with his jug of white lightening.  And we made it through just fine, even those of us who didn't know what 50% meant.

Offline trdsf

Re: Gun Control
« Reply #28 on: October 26, 2017, 12:56:52 PM »
The reply for the "ardent gunners" is that this is a slippery slope issue. Each piece of seemingly innocuous legislation is part of a pre-planned series of steps designed to "take our guns away!"

Yep, it's a conspiracy theory.
Funny how they never have an answer when I ask them how many people have had their drivers' licenses taken away on a governmental whim.  For DUI, vehicular manslaughter, getting into an accident while uninsured, yes.  But those are reasons, not whims.

And also, yes, the government can set limits on what's publicly available.  The State of Ohio BMV is not going to issue plates on an Indy car.  By extension, I don't see a need to issue a gun license for an Uzi that's capable of firing.
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning." -- Calvin and Hobbes
"I thought I committed regicide today, but I committed deicide!" -- Sadie Doyle, Beyond Belief

Re: Gun Control
« Reply #29 on: October 26, 2017, 03:14:58 PM »
The reply for the "ardent gunners" is that this is a slippery slope issue. Each piece of seemingly innocuous legislation is part of a pre-planned series of steps designed to "take our guns away!"

Yep, it's a conspiracy theory.

It's not a conspiracy theory when you have Nancy Pelosi telling people that she certainly hopes a piece of proposed gun control legislation is the first step on a slippery slope.
Save a life. Adopt a Greyhound.