How the Irish Prove Racism Against Muslims Exist

Started by Shiranu, October 13, 2017, 09:26:47 PM

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Baruch

Quote from: Cavebear on January 27, 2018, 12:40:46 PM
Didn't there have to be an event to write about first?  Or are you limiting it to Fox News, where reporting preceeds events?

There is bad news every day, and most posts wander from the OP.  The OP is crap.  Irish are racist too.  And news is always bad, because it sells.  If it isn't in fact bad, it is necessary to spin it as bad, in order to sell more soap.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Cavebear

Quote from: Baruch on January 27, 2018, 03:09:19 PM
There is bad news every day, and most posts wander from the OP.  The OP is crap.  Irish are racist too.  And news is always bad, because it sells.  If it isn't in fact bad, it is necessary to spin it as bad, in order to sell more soap.

A good reason to retreat to the most rational commenters, and ten, I suppose here.  Being "here" requires more thinking.  Usually...
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Baruch

Quote from: Cavebear on January 27, 2018, 03:13:36 PM
A good reason to retreat to the most rational commenters, and ten, I suppose here.  Being "here" requires more thinking.  Usually...

I agree, but it is an acquired ability to separate reality from propaganda.  Beware of confirmation bias.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Cavebear

Quote from: Baruch on January 27, 2018, 03:16:00 PM
I agree, but it is an acquired ability to separate reality from propaganda.  Beware of confirmation bias.

I completely agree that confirmation bias exists.  That's one reason why I check the facts of Democrats harder than I check those of Republicans.  I KNOW why Republicans lie.  I don't always know why Democrats do.  And they do less, but that doesn't free them from "some"....
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Jason Harvestdancer

I love when people deliberately mix contexts to prove a point.  Yes, from a biological standpoint there is no such thing as race within our species.  From a political standpoint there certainly is, and  Islam isn't a race.

Just like how creationists say evolution is "just a theory".
White privilege is being a lifelong racist, then being sent to the White House twice because your running mate is a minority.<br /><br />No Biden, no KKK, no Fascist USA!

Draconic Aiur

#185
Race does exist: the human race.

Thee reason why people keep saying their another race is because long ago a bunch of religious ignormoose said they were different and superior to the other "race and that's how different races began, although we all are one race.

Shiranu

QuoteThee reason why people keep saying their another race is because long ago a bunch of religious ignormoose said they were different and superior to the other "race and that's how different races began, although we all are one race.

*citation needed

I even agree with the race doesn't exist, but it could quite easily be argued that the origins of modern racism, as we understand it in the West, are much more rooted in nationalism and "science" rather than religion, predominately based on the works of English and French biologists and anthropologists who either wanted to justify colonialism and slavery or through interpretations of politicians and businessmen who used their power and say that science proved the idea of "lesser races" was scientific truths.

Of course, racism is really just an extension of ethnocentricism... which we can trace concretely back all the way to the Ancient Greeks (and surely existed long before then)... so to claim it is a product of religion, or science, just doesn't really add up. Modern racism is a product of science; that is just simple reality. But "racism" as an act of enforcing ethnocentric ideas transcends any religion and is found across people of every culture, ethnicity and religion.
"A little science distances you from God, but a lot of science brings you nearer to Him." - Louis Pasteur

Hydra009

Quote from: Jason Harvestdancer on February 04, 2018, 10:06:54 PMYes, from a biological standpoint there is no such thing as race within our species.  From a political standpoint there certainly is
Doesn't that just make the political standpoint incorrect?   :headscratch:

Blackleaf

Quote from: Shiranu on February 04, 2018, 10:55:44 PM
*citation needed

I even agree with the race doesn't exist, but it could quite easily be argued that the origins of modern racism, as we understand it in the West, are much more rooted in nationalism and "science" rather than religion, predominately based on the works of English and French biologists and anthropologists who either wanted to justify colonialism and slavery or through interpretations of politicians and businessmen who used their power and say that science proved the idea of "lesser races" was scientific truths.

Of course, racism is really just an extension of ethnocentricism... which we can trace concretely back all the way to the Ancient Greeks (and surely existed long before then)... so to claim it is a product of religion, or science, just doesn't really add up. Modern racism is a product of science; that is just simple reality. But "racism" as an act of enforcing ethnocentric ideas transcends any religion and is found across people of every culture, ethnicity and religion.

How the fuck is modern racism a product of science?
"Oh, wearisome condition of humanity,
Born under one law, to another bound;
Vainly begot, and yet forbidden vanity,
Created sick, commanded to be sound."
--Fulke Greville--

Jason Harvestdancer

Quote from: Hydra009 on February 04, 2018, 11:25:50 PM
Doesn't that just make the political standpoint incorrect?   :headscratch:

If we're going to point out all the the incorrect things in politics we're going to be here for years without scratching the surface.

The point is people are deliberately mixing contexts, and deliberately mixing contexts is wrong.
White privilege is being a lifelong racist, then being sent to the White House twice because your running mate is a minority.<br /><br />No Biden, no KKK, no Fascist USA!

Baruch

Quote from: Blackleaf on February 05, 2018, 09:22:21 AM
How the fuck is modern racism a product of science?

Modern anti-semitism was started by Voltaire ... he wasn't in the Stone Age, but the Age of Enlightenment.  Similarly modern racism starts with Lamarck in the 18th century (genotype the result of life style) and continues to develop into the 19th century with Darwin (as misapplied) once it was admitted that all of us are apes.  This was partly understood by Lamarck earlier, thinking that Africans were not the same species as Europeans ... and further confused by "orangutan" which is Indonesian for "man of the forest".  Social Darwinism isn't a science, it is misused science ... just as The Bell Curve is more recently.  The idea of genetic species wasn't understood until DNA was understood in the 1950s.  That is very modern.  And now with trans-genetic experiments, the idea of species is becoming moot.  So if a sheep in London has 10% human DNA, does it get 1/10 of a vote?  See similar discriminatory legislation in the early US Constitution.

So yes, old science, misused, has been used for racism.  Similar new science, will be misused to.  Just you have to get more clever to misuse it.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Shiranu

#191
Quote from: Blackleaf on February 05, 2018, 09:22:21 AM
How the fuck is modern racism a product of science?

I can't give a full response until much later (on phone) but Baruch covered a large part of it. The modern idea of race was heavily (and I don't use that word lightly) pushed by scientists who were just discovering the fields of genetics and anthropology. The idea of race as a genetic thing, or that there are "superior" races, or that the inferior races are inherently less intelligent, more violent, etc. (the racist rhetoric we use today) was almost completely and exclusively coined by scientists. Thus racism as we understand it now is largely a product of science... or rather, how we understand it is a product of science.

This doesn't mean science created this bigotry, just that it's how it is justified and expressed in modern society. It's just repackaged ethnocentric ideology with scientific justification.
"A little science distances you from God, but a lot of science brings you nearer to Him." - Louis Pasteur

Baruch

Quote from: Shiranu on February 05, 2018, 01:37:02 PM
I can't give a full response until much later (on phone) but Baruch covered a large part of it. The modern idea of race was heavily (and I don't use that word lightly) pushed by scientists who were just discovering the fields of genetics and anthropology. The idea of race as a genetic thing, or that there are "superior" races, or that the inferior races are inherently less intelligent, more violent, etc. (the racist rhetoric we use today) was almost completely and exclusively coined by scientists. Thus racism as we understand it now is largely a product of science... or rather, how we understand it is a product of science.

This doesn't mean science created this bigotry, just that it's how it is justified and expressed in modern society. It's just repackaged ethnocentric ideology with scientific justification.

If anything, simple village people in New Guinea, have higher average IQ than modern Europeans.  But the results differ ... and not because of IQ.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Draconic Aiur

Quote from: Shiranu on February 05, 2018, 01:37:02 PM
I can't give a full response until much later (on phone) but Baruch covered a large part of it. The modern idea of race was heavily (and I don't use that word lightly) pushed by scientists who were just discovering the fields of genetics and anthropology. The idea of race as a genetic thing, or that there are "superior" races, or that the inferior races are inherently less intelligent, more violent, etc. (the racist rhetoric we use today) was almost completely and exclusively coined by scientists. Thus racism as we understand it now is largely a product of science... or rather, how we understand it is a product of science.

This doesn't mean science created this bigotry, just that it's how it is justified and expressed in modern society. It's just repackaged ethnocentric ideology with scientific justification.

I think someone is reading in too much on the biological, chemical, physical relations that separates different people apart. Racism is more mental than anything Science has proven.  You're diluting yourself to think science had anything to do with anything emotional, because like a weapon, science is a tool.

Shiranu

QuoteRacism is more mental than anything Science has proven. 

Except science "proved" racism (until it "disproved" it by changing it's stance on if race even exists) for several hundred years. Race as we think of it is a scientific construct proposed during the 17th century; before then, it meant people who spoke a common tongue or shared nationalistic values. When we speak of racists, we both know damn well that is not the standard that is being used.

The first scientific race was proposed by Francois Bernier in 1684, and shortly after everyone jumped on that bandwagon for several hundred years.

European. Asian. Native American. African. When we think of race, this is what we think of, and the first person to propose these categories existed was a certain Carl Linnaeus (who proposed that Europeans were, "hard working, industrious, intelligent" while Africans were "lazy, incompetent and careless"). This wasn't opinion; this was published scientific "fact" that was thought as fact for centuries. Thomas Jefferson "studied" whites and blacks and concluded that Europeans were scientifically smarter than Africans, who were both less intelligent and had biological sexual impulses that made them lose control of themselves (I.E. the black guy comin' to rape your white women). Again, this was all done "scientifically".

QuoteYou're diluting yourself to think science had anything to do with anything emotional, because like a weapon, science is a tool.

Yes, science is a tool; and it was a tool that was used for very, very horrible things. It's like saying science had nothing to do with Wirth's experiments on Jews and prisoners... it was done because these were some absolutely disgusting monsters... but it wasn't done just to torture the Jews, it was done to research and learn. It was science taken to an unethical extreme (something that happens to this day and commonly).

When I say science, I don't mean "science" the field but "science" the scientists & the culture that surrounds it and composes it, and I think that is rather common sense to know which one is being referred to if you are a native English speaker.
"A little science distances you from God, but a lot of science brings you nearer to Him." - Louis Pasteur