Author Topic: How the Irish Prove Racism Against Muslims Exist  (Read 2901 times)

Offline Cavebear

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Re: How the Irish Prove Racism Against Muslims Exist
« Reply #120 on: October 27, 2017, 01:27:18 PM »
A Paul perhaps, but not as he was edited by the Church later.  But if we want to get completely skeptical of anything before 10/2/2017 ... I am game.

There seems, thru the edited screeds, a unified personality speaking to a set of related communities.  That is as much as one can tell.  And as long as one doesn't claim any miracles, then it is historically plausible.

OK, that is an actual rational argument, and a good one.  Please do this more often.  You hide behind your shield too often.

Yes, while most of the New Testamenr is written way too late for the alleged Disciples to have wrii=tten them, they do hve some consistent ideas.  And I won't quibble about the inconsistencies right here.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline Baruch

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Re: How the Irish Prove Racism Against Muslims Exist
« Reply #121 on: October 27, 2017, 01:28:32 PM »
OK, that is an actual rational argument, and a good one.  Please do this more often.  You hide behind your shield too often.

Yes, while most of the New Testamenr is written way too late for the alleged Disciples to have wrii=tten them, they do hve some consistent ideas.  And I won't quibble about the inconsistencies right here.

I am always happy to see you understood me.  It is unnecessary to agree with me or approve of me.
שלום

Offline Cavebear

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Re: How the Irish Prove Racism Against Muslims Exist
« Reply #122 on: October 27, 2017, 02:21:50 PM »
I am always happy to see you understood me.  It is unnecessary to agree with me or approve of me.

It takes some effort, but I always WAS good at solving puzzles.  And you need not worry I will tell "the others"  (hey guys, the secret meeting is at 10 EST the usual site - we're gonna talk about baruch AGAIN))
« Last Edit: October 27, 2017, 02:23:30 PM by Cavebear »
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Offline JCM800

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Re: How the Irish Prove Racism Against Muslims Exist
« Reply #123 on: January 08, 2018, 08:58:24 PM »
I'm sorry. I know this thread is old, but I have to reply. I'm not sure what point the OP is trying to make, but since the whole race/Islam topic is brought up here, I have to voice my opinion.

I think there are many of us atheists who consider ourselves aligned with the belief that political-correctness regarding Islam is a bad thing. When we criticize muslims for their beliefs, we are specifically defining the word "muslim" to mean a person who practices the religion of Islam, and are in no way attacking people of Arabic ethnicity or the like. We are trying to uphold the principle that beliefs do not automatically deserve respect, and that our western nations have built into their framework a freedom to publicly criticize beliefs. This is not racism, it's not xenophoia, and it's not hatred of any sort. Whether people want to admit it or not, there are problems with specific ideas within Islamic theology (just as there are within Christian theology) which we see muslims carry out relatively frequently. Many of these practices are in direct violation of liberal principles, and therefore cannot be tolerated from anyone, regardless of their race, religon, or nationality. It just so happens that muslims hold many of these principles and many muslims are either complicit, or activlely participate in their practice. I'm referring of course to Jihadism/terrosism, Islamism, compulsory subjugation of women, female genital mutilation, etc... We also of course understand that it is absurd to judge all muslims based on the actions of some, which is why the details of our position matters. To ignore that these realities exist and to silence those who want to bring up the conversation about them so as to be "politically-correct" is about as absurd, cowardly, and immoral as anything I can think of.  Most of us are aware by now of the numerous incidents involving muslims terrorizing and killing others because their beliefs were offended (i.e. Charlie Hebdo, the murder of Theo Van Goh, the death threats towards Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Salman Rushdie, etc...). We can either be intellectually-honest about the problems that lie within the Islamic world and publicly speak on the matter without fear, or we can take the politically-correct route and excuse unspeakable atrocities. Cultural-relativism is, in my view, a bogus and dangerous idea. If we are atheists who believe that there can be an objective foundation for morality that is rooted in a scientific and reasoned understanding of sentient life, then we are obligated to fight atrocity everywhere and at all times. If a few muslims get offended because of it, I'll break out the world's smallest violin for them and play them a sad song. Be offended all you want, I can't help it. I'm going to stand up for human rights and liberal values everywhere.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2018, 09:02:03 PM by JCM800 »

Offline pr126

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Re: How the Irish Prove Racism Against Muslims Exist
« Reply #124 on: January 09, 2018, 12:04:16 AM »
Islam has been designated as a race for a purpose.

To stop you criticizing it, lest you are called a racist.
The word Islamophobia was invented for the same reason.
Criticizing Islam is Anti-Muslim hatred.  Conflating ideology and people.

Phobias used to be medical conditions, which are now criminal offenses.

Racism and xenophobia

Those are the rules. Watch your step.

« Last Edit: January 09, 2018, 12:10:51 AM by pr126 »
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Online Shiranu

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Re: How the Irish Prove Racism Against Muslims Exist
« Reply #125 on: January 09, 2018, 01:27:32 AM »
I'm sorry. I know this thread is old, but I have to reply. I'm not sure what point the OP is trying to make, but since the whole race/Islam topic is brought up here, I have to voice my opinion.

I think there are many of us atheists who consider ourselves aligned with the belief that political-correctness regarding Islam is a bad thing. When we criticize muslims for their beliefs, we are specifically defining the word "muslim" to mean a person who practices the religion of Islam, and are in no way attacking people of Arabic ethnicity or the like. We are trying to uphold the principle that beliefs do not automatically deserve respect, and that our western nations have built into their framework a freedom to publicly criticize beliefs. This is not racism, it's not xenophoia, and it's not hatred of any sort. Whether people want to admit it or not, there are problems with specific ideas within Islamic theology (just as there are within Christian theology) which we see muslims carry out relatively frequently. Many of these practices are in direct violation of liberal principles, and therefore cannot be tolerated from anyone, regardless of their race, religon, or nationality. It just so happens that muslims hold many of these principles and many muslims are either complicit, or activlely participate in their practice. I'm referring of course to Jihadism/terrosism, Islamism, compulsory subjugation of women, female genital mutilation, etc... We also of course understand that it is absurd to judge all muslims based on the actions of some, which is why the details of our position matters. To ignore that these realities exist and to silence those who want to bring up the conversation about them so as to be "politically-correct" is about as absurd, cowardly, and immoral as anything I can think of.  Most of us are aware by now of the numerous incidents involving muslims terrorizing and killing others because their beliefs were offended (i.e. Charlie Hebdo, the murder of Theo Van Goh, the death threats towards Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Salman Rushdie, etc...). We can either be intellectually-honest about the problems that lie within the Islamic world and publicly speak on the matter without fear, or we can take the politically-correct route and excuse unspeakable atrocities. Cultural-relativism is, in my view, a bogus and dangerous idea. If we are atheists who believe that there can be an objective foundation for morality that is rooted in a scientific and reasoned understanding of sentient life, then we are obligated to fight atrocity everywhere and at all times. If a few muslims get offended because of it, I'll break out the world's smallest violin for them and play them a sad song. Be offended all you want, I can't help it. I'm going to stand up for human rights and liberal values everywhere.

And I don't have any problem with people legitimately criticising Islam. The problem is that certain people go from criticising issues with Islam to then saying, "We should consider a final solution to fix this. They will eternally be our enemy, and there is no hope to ever change them. There may be some good Muslims, but every Muslim is a potential enemy."

They insist that Islam is monolithic and uniform (despite the fact there are currently two branches currently in civil war in the Middle East, various schools of thought in nexuses like Saudi Arabia, etc.), they insist that Islam cannot be changed (despite the fact there are, again, multiple branches and it literally takes you two seconds to see Islam as was practiced in Turkey is different from Islam in Saudi Arabia, Islam in the United States is different from Islam in Singapore, etc.) and insist that it is a fundamental part of their culture to just be violent terrorists hellbent on destroying every last bit of western culture, and thus must be feared.

The point of this thread is that, historically, religion was just as much a part of race as skin colour or where you were from... you see it with the Irish, the Italians, India to this day, etc. . And there is a line between what is legitimate criticism and what is xenophobic (if we don't want to use the r-word), and that line is crossed way too often by not just nutjobs like pr, but it's been repeated so much that even more rationally minded people start to buy it.

I don't have a problem with people criticising FGM, the oppression of women, the LGBT+ community, the regressive sexual views, the violence etc. of Islam... I only have a problem with people who go on to say that Islam is completely unique in this regard, that it has no political basis and is purely theological (thus, cultural), or that we need to be afraid of every single Muslim because, you never know, they might be a terrorist out to get you. That is when it stops being criticism and starts being very dangerous fear mongering that easily bleeds into racism.
“How strange it was to think that he, who such a short time ago dared not believe in the happiness of her loving him, now felt unhappy because she loved him too much!” - Levin, Anna Karenina

Offline pr126

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Re: How the Irish Prove Racism Against Muslims Exist
« Reply #126 on: January 09, 2018, 02:24:33 AM »
Shiranu wote:
Quote
The problem is that certain people go from criticising issues with Islam to then saying, "We should consider a final solution to fix this. They will eternally be our enemy, and there is no hope to ever change them. There may be some good Muslims, but every Muslim is a potential enemy."

Citation needed.

Quote
And there is a line between what is legitimate criticism and what is xenophobic (if we don't want to use the r-word), and that line is crossed way too often by not just nutjobs like pr, but it's been repeated so much that even more rationally minded people start to buy it.
Citation needed.
“It is easier to fool people than to convince them they have been fooled”  - Mark Twain

Offline JCM800

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Re: How the Irish Prove Racism Against Muslims Exist
« Reply #127 on: January 09, 2018, 03:32:06 AM »
And I don't have any problem with people legitimately criticising Islam. The problem is that certain people go from criticising issues with Islam to then saying, "We should consider a final solution to fix this. They will eternally be our enemy, and there is no hope to ever change them. There may be some good Muslims, but every Muslim is a potential enemy."

They insist that Islam is monolithic and uniform (despite the fact there are currently two branches currently in civil war in the Middle East, various schools of thought in nexuses like Saudi Arabia, etc.), they insist that Islam cannot be changed (despite the fact there are, again, multiple branches and it literally takes you two seconds to see Islam as was practiced in Turkey is different from Islam in Saudi Arabia, Islam in the United States is different from Islam in Singapore, etc.) and insist that it is a fundamental part of their culture to just be violent terrorists hellbent on destroying every last bit of western culture, and thus must be feared.

The point of this thread is that, historically, religion was just as much a part of race as skin colour or where you were from... you see it with the Irish, the Italians, India to this day, etc. . And there is a line between what is legitimate criticism and what is xenophobic (if we don't want to use the r-word), and that line is crossed way too often by not just nutjobs like pr, but it's been repeated so much that even more rationally minded people start to buy it.

I don't have a problem with people criticising FGM, the oppression of women, the LGBT+ community, the regressive sexual views, the violence etc. of Islam... I only have a problem with people who go on to say that Islam is completely unique in this regard, that it has no political basis and is purely theological (thus, cultural), or that we need to be afraid of every single Muslim because, you never know, they might be a terrorist out to get you. That is when it stops being criticism and starts being very dangerous fear mongering that easily bleeds into racism.
The so-called "good muslims" need to be coming out in vocal and ardent opposition to the bad ones instead of playing the victim card every time the topic is brought up. I can't help that they have a holy book comprised of ideas which promote iron-age savagery and depravity. It's not my problem that they've chosen to follow a tradition in which a devout adherence has produced some of the most disgusting acts of violence and terror this world has ever seen, and I'm not going to allow them to make it my problem. All I can say is that if there are non-violent muslims out there who are complicit, or who sympathize with the violent and savage ones, then they ARE my enemy. I don't care what hue their skin is, where they're from, or who the hell they think they are, I won't stand for it. I also find it funny that muslim women are considered "courageous" when they stand up to white men in the west, and they do this whilst wearring a symbol of women's oppression on their heads in which white, western men had no part in subjugating them to. The irony is unbearable. They have a compulsory obligation placed upon them to be subjugated in this way, yet it's white, western men who need to be stood up to? I swear it is almost funny to think about the breathtakingly terrible logic and moral confusion of people who defend Islamic culture and slam the west. There is no other place where you will have a better life, experience less oppession, and have more opportunity and security than here in the US of A. I don't want to hear this marxist nonsense anymore.

Offline pr126

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Re: How the Irish Prove Racism Against Muslims Exist
« Reply #128 on: January 09, 2018, 04:14:22 AM »
@JMC800

I understand your frustration.
Quote
The so-called "good muslims" need to be coming out in vocal and ardent opposition to the bad ones instead of playing the victim card every time the topic is brought up.
The so-called "good Muslims" cannot do that without risking their lives.
Also, the scriptures are against them, to speak against the teachings of Islam is apostasy.
It is built into the ideology that any and all criticism is forbidden on pain of death.

Quote
I don't want to hear this marxist nonsense anymore.
My observations are that the left (Marxist) and Islam are using each other for attaining total power and control.
For Islam, power and control are bestowed by Allah, it is their divine destiny to have dominance over the world.

They have the determination, will, focus, and all the help from the left to achieve it.
My money is in Islam for winning.

In the end, there can be only one.
Islam does not compromise or share power.
It is a zero-sum game where there is only winner and loser.

P.S. If I may offer an advice: Use shorter paragraphs, it is easier to read.










« Last Edit: January 09, 2018, 04:15:55 AM by pr126 »
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Online Shiranu

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Re: How the Irish Prove Racism Against Muslims Exist
« Reply #129 on: January 09, 2018, 04:24:49 AM »
"...There is no other place where you will have a better life, and have more opportunity and security than here in the US of A."

That is objectively just not true...
“How strange it was to think that he, who such a short time ago dared not believe in the happiness of her loving him, now felt unhappy because she loved him too much!” - Levin, Anna Karenina

Offline pr126

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Re: How the Irish Prove Racism Against Muslims Exist
« Reply #130 on: January 09, 2018, 04:37:36 AM »
Yet they still keep coming...
Because it is better from what they leave behind.

« Last Edit: January 09, 2018, 04:41:10 AM by pr126 »
“It is easier to fool people than to convince them they have been fooled”  - Mark Twain

Online Shiranu

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Re: How the Irish Prove Racism Against Muslims Exist
« Reply #131 on: January 09, 2018, 04:51:58 AM »
Yet they still keep coming...
Because it is better from what they leave behind.



...which still doesn't change the fact that it was an objectively false statement. That is irrelevant in every way.
“How strange it was to think that he, who such a short time ago dared not believe in the happiness of her loving him, now felt unhappy because she loved him too much!” - Levin, Anna Karenina

Offline Munch

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Re: How the Irish Prove Racism Against Muslims Exist
« Reply #132 on: January 09, 2018, 05:19:06 AM »
Maybe you should tell them that then. Stand at harbours yelling "no, don't come here, our country is terrible"

Online Shiranu

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Re: How the Irish Prove Racism Against Muslims Exist
« Reply #133 on: January 09, 2018, 05:23:12 AM »
Maybe you should tell them that then. Stand at harbours yelling "no, don't come here, our country is terrible"




Yall trying way too hard now. 1/10.
“How strange it was to think that he, who such a short time ago dared not believe in the happiness of her loving him, now felt unhappy because she loved him too much!” - Levin, Anna Karenina

Offline pr126

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Re: How the Irish Prove Racism Against Muslims Exist
« Reply #134 on: January 09, 2018, 06:11:19 AM »
When Trump was elected, quite a few people said they will move to Canada.
Not one wanted to move to Mexico. I wonder why?

In the end, nobody moved.
TDS is still strong as ever.
“It is easier to fool people than to convince them they have been fooled”  - Mark Twain

 

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