Author Topic: How the Irish Prove Racism Against Muslims Exist  (Read 1059 times)

Online Shiranu (OP)

How the Irish Prove Racism Against Muslims Exist
« on: October 13, 2017, 09:26:47 PM »
So I have to admit... for the longest time, I have agreed that you cannot be racist against Muslims. But after the 100th time of hearing that line, even when race isn't even being brought up, it made me actually think about it, and you know what? Like most alt-right catch phrases, it is completely and utterly full of shit. Let's leave the fact that race doesn't even exist as a valid scientific concept, at least not for quite some time now, and just focus on the racism against the Irish.


What "race" are the Irish? Caucasian. Irish is not a race, it is a nationality and cultural identity. You cant look at someone and "know" they are Irish, unless you hold the completely wrong belief that all Irish people have redhair, freckles, and... whatever else people stereotype the Irish as having (crippling alcoholism?).

So, already the idea that racism is just about "race" has already fallen bunk, but it gets worse.


Why were people racist against the Irish? Their religion, Roman Catholicism vs Protestantism. That's right, the main source of racism towards the Irish (as well as many other groups like the Polish, Italians, etc.) fell almost purely along cultural and religious lines. So either we have to stop calling a huge amount of "racist" times and policies racist and admit that the word race really means absolutely nothing... or we have to admit that being racist against Muslims is a completely valid thing given historical context.



This does not mean criticising Muslims is racist, far from it. But when that criticism evolves into mindless fear-mongering, lying and bigotry, like alt-right supporters and politicians do, then it is historically fully accurate to call it racism. It is literally textbook racism because it is identical to the hysteria that surrounded the Irish and Italians who were coming to, "Destroy American culture any day now and enforce their foreign religion laws upon us!"... which is a textbook case of racism.


I'm tired of coddling racists and trying not to hurt their feelings. Fuck that. If you are a racist, you deserve to be called it.
“Life isn't long enough to enjoy and understand all at the same time. You have to decide which is more important." - Pedro Juan Gutierrez

"Too much sanity may be madness and the maddest of all, to see life as it is and not as it should be." - Miguel de Cervantes

Re: How the Irish Prove Racism Against Muslims Exist
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2017, 09:46:54 PM »
If it's not a race, you can't be racist towards it on the basis of thinking it is inherently shit.

Online Shiranu (OP)

Re: How the Irish Prove Racism Against Muslims Exist
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2017, 09:51:18 PM »
If it's not a race, you can't be racist towards it on the basis of thinking it is inherently shit.

Good to see you didn't read a single word. Here, let me sound bite it for you...

Race - does not exist.
Historically - Racism against Irish (white on white racism?) was based on religious lines. So either the Irish never faced racism, or you can be racist against Muslims.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2017, 09:53:31 PM by Shiranu »
“Life isn't long enough to enjoy and understand all at the same time. You have to decide which is more important." - Pedro Juan Gutierrez

"Too much sanity may be madness and the maddest of all, to see life as it is and not as it should be." - Miguel de Cervantes

Re: How the Irish Prove Racism Against Muslims Exist
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2017, 10:47:52 PM »
I'm aware that race is a social construct, but in some circumstances, it is necessary. The Irish are white, yes, but so are Hispanics. But Hispanics have different cultures, stereotypes, and social power. To lump them together with the dominant white race of America would oversimplify the social dynamics that exist in the country. Similarly, the Irish may have been white, but they also had visible traits to set them apart, such as red hair (which was hated for some reason), as well as a different language and culture. As for Muslims, they are not a race in any sense of the word. They are a religious group. If you want to refer to the race of people from cultures where Islam is the dominant religion, you can call them Arabs, or Middle Eastern people. Muslims, like Christians, comprise of people of every race.

When it comes to the politics of whether or not to invite people from Muslim-dominant countries into our country, I am a bit on the fence. I can see the merits in arguments on both sides. I'd say our best course of action would be to look at how other countries who have welcomed large groups of Islamic Arabs turned out. My opinion at the moment is that Islam is a war-mongering ideology by nature which drives members to attempt to dominate the nations they occupy rather than integrate, even to a greater extreme than Christianity. Allowing them to congregate and claim their own mini-societies within the USA may result in some irreversible complications. If those who come are violent and resistant to change, the police may label their areas as no-go zones, leaving the communities to police themselves the same way some Mormon communities have taken over their own local governments.
"Birds born in a cage think flying is an illness." - Alejandro Jodorowsky

Offline Baruch

Re: How the Irish Prove Racism Against Muslims Exist
« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2017, 11:54:25 PM »
Good to see you didn't read a single word. Here, let me sound bite it for you...

Race - does not exist.
Historically - Racism against Irish (white on white racism?) was based on religious lines. So either the Irish never faced racism, or you can be racist against Muslims.

Worse.  In Cromwell's time (the worst time for the Irish before the Famine) ... the English thought the Irish had little dog tails, because they were spawn of the devil.  But per your POV, since all religion is false, and clearly Irish don't have little dog tails anyway, the prejudice of the English at that time ... is just BS.  But yet, some of the savagery of the English against the Irish, isn't just a matter of religion, in the minds of the English.
שלום

Offline Baruch

Re: How the Irish Prove Racism Against Muslims Exist
« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2017, 11:56:32 PM »
I'm aware that race is a social construct, but in some circumstances, it is necessary. The Irish are white, yes, but so are Hispanics. But Hispanics have different cultures, stereotypes, and social power. To lump them together with the dominant white race of America would oversimplify the social dynamics that exist in the country. Similarly, the Irish may have been white, but they also had visible traits to set them apart, such as red hair (which was hated for some reason), as well as a different language and culture. As for Muslims, they are not a race in any sense of the word. They are a religious group. If you want to refer to the race of people from cultures where Islam is the dominant religion, you can call them Arabs, or Middle Eastern people. Muslims, like Christians, comprise of people of every race.

When it comes to the politics of whether or not to invite people from Muslim-dominant countries into our country, I am a bit on the fence. I can see the merits in arguments on both sides. I'd say our best course of action would be to look at how other countries who have welcomed large groups of Islamic Arabs turned out. My opinion at the moment is that Islam is a war-mongering ideology by nature which drives members to attempt to dominate the nations they occupy rather than integrate, even to a greater extreme than Christianity. Allowing them to congregate and claim their own mini-societies within the USA may result in some irreversible complications. If those who come are violent and resistant to change, the police may label their areas as no-go zones, leaving the communities to police themselves the same way some Mormon communities have taken over their own local governments.

Race may exist, but the fact remains, people like their own kind (however they define "kind").  And they don't like those are are not of their own kind.  Trying to sell cosmopolitanism has been a losing proposition since Cyrus and Alexander tried it.  It can't even be sold to the feuding segments of Spain.
שלום

Re: How the Irish Prove Racism Against Muslims Exist
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2017, 12:00:24 AM »
What "race" are the Irish? Caucasian. Irish is not a race, it is a nationality and cultural identity.
Correct.

Quote
Why were people racist against the Irish? Their religion, Roman Catholicism vs Protestantism. That's right, the main source of racism towards the Irish (as well as many other groups like the Polish, Italians, etc.) fell almost purely along cultural and religious lines.
Correct.  While not technically racism (because Irish people are not a race but a nationality/ethnic group), it's in the same ballpark.  Bigotry, racism, it's the same basic thing.

Like the Irish, Muslims have certain stereotyped traits.  Brown skin, arab-speaking, unshaven beards, hijab, turbans, etc.

It'd be interesting to expose people to Muslims who don't fully match expectations - white-skinned Muslims, Muslims who wear western clothing, etc.  Maybe even thrown in a control Sikh or Lebanese Christian.  That way, we could get a better picture of what people are really averse to - stereotyped appearances or ideology.

If someone is truly averse only to Islamic ideology as they say, then they wouldn't be put off by brown-skinned Christians or Sikh turbans.  But if they fail the test, it's an indication of a bigotry has nothing to do with Islam.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2017, 12:03:19 AM by Hydra009 »

Offline Baruch

Re: How the Irish Prove Racism Against Muslims Exist
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2017, 12:09:22 AM »
Bigotry unfortunately happens, because we make snap judgments, based appearances ... are you Bluish or not?  Better to shoot first and ask questions later.  People famously mis-estimate risk.  If you met a Sikh in the mall, what is the chance he will pull out his knife and slash you?  All Sikh men are supposed to carry a ceremonial knife.  If you are paranoid, you will overestimate the risks in every encounter.
שלום

Re: How the Irish Prove Racism Against Muslims Exist
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2017, 12:24:59 AM »
Race may exist, but the fact remains, people like their own kind (however they define "kind").  And they don't like those are are not of their own kind.  Trying to sell cosmopolitanism has been a losing proposition since Cyrus and Alexander tried it.  It can't even be sold to the feuding segments of Spain.

I am aware that I have certain biases in my brain. Everyone does. It is only natural that our brains make shortcuts when trying make sense of the world. It's easier, it takes less energy, but it also leads to some imperfections in our understanding. Knowing this, I do try my best to keep my prejudices in check. What I often end up with is...

"Birds born in a cage think flying is an illness." - Alejandro Jodorowsky

Offline pr126

Re: How the Irish Prove Racism Against Muslims Exist
« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2017, 12:39:24 AM »
Anyone who is not a Muslim is a bigoted racist Islamophobe deserve to die or be enslaved.
That's about 5.7 billion humans.

Quran 9:5

"Then, when the sacred months have passed,
slay the idolaters wherever ye find them,
and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush.
But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free.
Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful"


Allah hu Akbar!
« Last Edit: October 14, 2017, 12:56:12 AM by pr126 »
“True Ignorance is not the absence of knowledge but the refusal to acquire it.” - Karl Popper

Online Shiranu (OP)

Re: How the Irish Prove Racism Against Muslims Exist
« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2017, 12:58:37 AM »
Anyone who is not a Muslim is a bigoted racist Islamophobe deserve to die or be enslaved.
That's about 5.7 billion humans.

Quran 9:5

"Then, when the sacred months have passed,
slay the idolaters wherever ye find them,
and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush.
But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free.
Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful"


Allah hu Akbar!

Nah, it's just your racism that makes you racist. Be proud, don't let the scary Muslims steal even that from you.

Also, way to prove my point...
“Life isn't long enough to enjoy and understand all at the same time. You have to decide which is more important." - Pedro Juan Gutierrez

"Too much sanity may be madness and the maddest of all, to see life as it is and not as it should be." - Miguel de Cervantes

Offline pr126

Re: How the Irish Prove Racism Against Muslims Exist
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2017, 01:04:08 AM »
Well, unless you are a Muslim, you are also on the "to do" list.
As an atheist, you do not get the Third Choice.
No matter how much you respect Islam.


“True Ignorance is not the absence of knowledge but the refusal to acquire it.” - Karl Popper

Online Shiranu (OP)

Re: How the Irish Prove Racism Against Muslims Exist
« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2017, 01:19:13 AM »
Quote
The Irish are white, yes, but so are Hispanics. But Hispanics have different cultures, stereotypes, and social power. To lump them together with the dominant white race of America would oversimplify the social dynamics that exist in the country. Similarly, the Irish may have been white, but they also had visible traits to set them apart, such as red hair (which was hated for some reason), as well as a different language and culture.

That only further goes to justify my point that racism therefor has nothing to do with race but rather cultural and socio-political identifiers. And Irish do not have redhair; only 10% of the total population has red hair. That's like me saying, "Americans have black skin".

Quote
As for Muslims, they are not a race in any sense of the word. They are a religious group. If you want to refer to the race of people from cultures where Islam is the dominant religion, you can call them Arabs, or Middle Eastern people. Muslims, like Christians, comprise of people of every race.

Which is again going to my point; Irish people are NOT a unified people, but made up of several different ethnic groups due to their history of traders with Iberia (one of the closest group genetically to the Irish are the Basque people, particularly in Western Ireland), their time under Viking control and then their colonization by the English and the Scottish immigrants to Ireland.

To be "racist" against Irish in the historical sense is to be bigoted towards two things; their culture, and their religion (technically culture, but we will separate them for convenience sake). If Irish is a "race" then Muslim (the people we fear, not the Indonesian, Indian, etc. variety but the Middle Eastern) can easily be called a "race" because they share similar cultural backgrounds thanks to Arabian imperialism and a unified religious heritage.

When you tell a racist American "Muslim", they see the same thing you said with Irish; dark skin, dark hair, a beard and a turban instead of red hair and freckles. They aren't thinking about an Indonesian man in a business suit, a light-skinned Northern Egyptian girl in torn jeans and a rock-band t-shirt, a Turkish man sipping tea on the Ageaian as Western-dressed women walk around with no man, whatever... it's the scary Arabian descent and African descent Muslims that come to their mind, even though the Asian variety make up the majority, and the Muslim they picture makes up a small percentage of the global population.

Frankly, my point more than anything is that the word racist is truly and utterly meaningless when you break it down and is just a catch-all for the word "bigoted", inherited from an era where race was considered an actual scientific truth. If Irish people are a "race", than Muslim (as perceived in the eyes of bigots) are just as much a race because they are interpreted as a race.

This is saying nothing about criticizing Islam. By all means, do so... it has more than it's fair-share of things to be criticized. But what cant be done in a civilized society is tolerating xenophobic bigotry (a more accurate description for racism, but racism just has that punch to it and stigma/shame associated with it) and giving it a free pass just because they make good points 10% of the time. We wouldn't let that shit slide if people said the same things the alt-right says about Muslims towards Irish, Mexicans, Roman Catholics, Jews (all groups that are targets of xenophobic bigots who use rhetoric almost exactly like pr) just because they got 10% of reality in their statements... so Muslims cant be the same, regardless of if they are the "enemy" or not.

And my god, you are such a drama queen pr. Thankfully it's getting winter time, so your precious little snowflake self won't melt for a few more months yet. No one is going to arrest and execute you for being a racist old buffon you spaz, they will just point, laugh and call you on your shit. If your skin is that thin, perhaps you should take some time off the internet and stop worrying about how fragile everyone but you is...
“Life isn't long enough to enjoy and understand all at the same time. You have to decide which is more important." - Pedro Juan Gutierrez

"Too much sanity may be madness and the maddest of all, to see life as it is and not as it should be." - Miguel de Cervantes

Offline pr126

Re: How the Irish Prove Racism Against Muslims Exist
« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2017, 01:32:54 AM »
Snowflake? You are projecting.

However, it is worth noting that Muslims are of all ethnicities from all over the planet.
Including the much-despised whites.
So it is hardly the "races" but the ideology.

But it is oh so easy to scream racist at any and all opportunity.
Racist, bigot, xenophobe, any phobias one can think of, it works every time.

Virtue signalling makes you feel superior.


“True Ignorance is not the absence of knowledge but the refusal to acquire it.” - Karl Popper

Online Shiranu (OP)

Re: How the Irish Prove Racism Against Muslims Exist
« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2017, 01:42:34 AM »
Great, now you are just going to repeat what I said and think that proves you right.

You never cease to amaze.
“Life isn't long enough to enjoy and understand all at the same time. You have to decide which is more important." - Pedro Juan Gutierrez

"Too much sanity may be madness and the maddest of all, to see life as it is and not as it should be." - Miguel de Cervantes