Author Topic: Jesus--Fact or Fiction??  (Read 3934 times)

Offline Unbeliever

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Re: Jesus--Fact or Fiction??
« Reply #300 on: November 16, 2017, 02:59:57 PM »
I like to read the index first in any non-fiction book that has one.
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Online Baruch

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Re: Jesus--Fact or Fiction??
« Reply #301 on: November 16, 2017, 06:31:41 PM »
I like to read the index first in any non-fiction book that has one.

A glossary is even more informative, if there is one.
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Offline fencerider

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Re: Jesus--Fact or Fiction??
« Reply #302 on: December 09, 2017, 02:38:58 PM »
Mike and Baruch I think you got me inspired to read the book. I dont know anything about this stuff. 🤔 I guess the short story is that the majority of the Bible was foisted on the world without any Fact Checking involved.

Cavebear The idea of transformer smurfs is entertaining. If there were any they would be playing tricks on other smurfs like the Weasely brothers in Harry Potter.

Mike you mispelled a word in Element 43. The resulting phrase was quite amusing. Human sacrifice was widely regarded as the most powerful salivation magic available.
Are there any vampires around?
« Last Edit: December 09, 2017, 02:41:43 PM by fencerider »
not expecting god to show up, but if he does we’re going to have to beat the prick up.

Online Baruch

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Re: Jesus--Fact or Fiction??
« Reply #303 on: December 09, 2017, 02:58:24 PM »
Mike and Baruch I think you got me inspired to read the book. I dont know anything about this stuff. 🤔 I guess the short story is that the majority of the Bible was foisted on the world without any Fact Checking involved.

Cavebear The idea of transformer smurfs is entertaining. If there were any they would be playing tricks on other smurfs like the Weasely brothers in Harry Potter.

Mike you mispelled a word in Element 43. The resulting phrase was quite amusing. Human sacrifice was widely regarded as the most powerful salivation magic available.
Are there any vampires around?

There is a cultural context to Gentile Christianity, in addition to the Jewish context.  One of the most popular Greco-Roman novels of the time was Damon & Pythias.  These were boy-friends.  One was accused of a capital crime, and the other stood as hostage, while the accused went to settle his affairs, promising to return.  Contrary to audience expectations, the accused returned, thus freeing the hostage.  The tyrant was so impressed (and he was an actual evil dude in history) he freed both men.  Think of dramatizations of this as early Passion Plays.  Dionysius worship is the origin of theater.

http://atheistforums.com/index.php?action=post;quote=1200901;topic=12026.300

This was a Pythagorean story, and probably gay as well.  Some early Christian baptism may have involved an older man with a younger man (as is common in pagan Greek culture).  Kabbalah is linked the Pythagorean mysticism ... and part of the roots of Christianity are in Kabbalah.  Another origin is a martyrdom cult that started during the Maccabean period.

Educated Latins knew Virgil's 4th Eclogue ..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_interpretations_of_Virgil%27s_Eclogue_4

Which is part of the poetic background to the Christ nativity.  The promised child of Mark Anthony and Octavia (Augustus' sister) didn't pan out as hoped ... and it would have been a pagan messiah, anyway.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2017, 03:02:46 PM by Baruch »
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Offline Mike Cl

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Re: Jesus--Fact or Fiction??
« Reply #304 on: December 09, 2017, 05:20:15 PM »
Mike and Baruch I think you got me inspired to read the book. I dont know anything about this stuff. 🤔 I guess the short story is that the majority of the Bible was foisted on the world without any Fact Checking involved.

Cavebear The idea of transformer smurfs is entertaining. If there were any they would be playing tricks on other smurfs like the Weasely brothers in Harry Potter.

Mike you mispelled a word in Element 43. The resulting phrase was quite amusing. Human sacrifice was widely regarded as the most powerful salivation magic available.
Are there any vampires around?
In my view, the book is quite well done.  I have read it through once, but have returned to it time and again reading this part and that.  It is a great research book, if nothing else.  I am very interested in view and comments about it, if you wish to share.

And that would not be 'vampire', but zombie. 
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Offline Cavebear

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Re: Jesus--Fact or Fiction??
« Reply #305 on: December 12, 2017, 02:40:22 AM »
None of this answers the question of the factuality of the alledged Jesus.  The Romans never mentioned him, and they kept the best records of the times.  Never mentioned Masada either, for that matter...
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Online Baruch

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Re: Jesus--Fact or Fiction??
« Reply #306 on: December 12, 2017, 06:56:54 AM »
None of this answers the question of the factuality of the alledged Jesus.  The Romans never mentioned him, and they kept the best records of the times.  Never mentioned Masada either, for that matter...

Correct.  Only what the Romans wrote at the time is relevant.  And the Romans always tell the truth (and not Josephus, he isn't Roman).  But why limit to Roman historians.  As I posted above, the writings of the Augustan age are quite relevant.  Their poetry was fiction, but so was their histories.  History was propaganda, still is .. and entertainment of the elites (who wanted their reputations burnished).

I agree that there was no Jesus.  Also no Moses, and apparently, no Muhammad.  So what?  The ideas of them are more powerful than facts ... because humans aren't Vulcans.  Future historians of our time, will only be putting their own spin on our conspiracy theories of Obama or Trump.  Mary Beard makes this quite clear in her book on Roman history, SPQR.

We have Cicero's private letters, and not much else ... and I wouldn't trust his correspondence ... the man was a politician, and so was Caesar and Brutus he wrote to.  And the opus of his works was culled and edited after his death.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2017, 07:01:33 AM by Baruch »
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Offline Mike Cl

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Re: Jesus--Fact or Fiction??
« Reply #307 on: December 12, 2017, 08:32:08 AM »
None of this answers the question of the factuality of the alledged Jesus.  The Romans never mentioned him, and they kept the best records of the times.  Never mentioned Masada either, for that matter...
I remember reading that an author researched all of the historians that would have been able to mention the 'actual' Jesus if he were alive at that time and place.  He uncovered something like 110 historians that fit the bill.  None of them mentioned Jesus---None!
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Offline Cavebear

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Re: Jesus--Fact or Fiction??
« Reply #308 on: December 15, 2017, 02:49:58 AM »
I remember reading that an author researched all of the historians that would have been able to mention the 'actual' Jesus if he were alive at that time and place.  He uncovered something like 110 historians that fit the bill.  None of them mentioned Jesus---None!

I had a couple of Jehovah's Witnesses visit a year ago.  Since they knocked on my door while I had been up all night til 10 am (here, probably) I wasn't at my best but did answer the door (knowing who they were, and wearing my bright yellow atheist hat). 

They were shocked when I pointed at my hat.  Probably never met an avowed atheist before.  We had a great discussion.  I listened to their presentation and then asked them a lot of questions.  Questions they weren't prepared to answer.  Typical stuff like why "Christmas" when everything in the bible suggested a Springtime birth due to the shepards etc.

The one that really got them was asking for proof that there even was a Jesus when there was no evidence of his existence.  Everything they said was assuming he existed and I explained about "circular reasoning". 

They were baffled!

They haven't bothered me since...
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Online Baruch

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Re: Jesus--Fact or Fiction??
« Reply #309 on: December 15, 2017, 04:55:38 AM »
No atheist hat.  But I do have a Disney authorized Chicken Little hat I wear at work sometimes ;-)  It is bright yellow, with a red comb.  I also have a little girl's magic wand (battery powered with sound) that I can use to work computer problems ;-))
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Offline Cavebear

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Re: Jesus--Fact or Fiction??
« Reply #310 on: December 18, 2017, 03:12:30 PM »
No atheist hat.  But I do have a Disney authorized Chicken Little hat I wear at work sometimes ;-)  It is bright yellow, with a red comb.  I also have a little girl's magic wand (battery powered with sound) that I can use to work computer problems ;-))

Enjoy your silly hat while being also irrelevant.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Online Baruch

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Re: Jesus--Fact or Fiction??
« Reply #311 on: December 18, 2017, 07:27:47 PM »
Enjoy your silly hat while being also irrelevant.

My hat and my wand, when I use them, do what I want them to do.  That is what relevant means.
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Offline Cavebear

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Re: Jesus--Fact or Fiction??
« Reply #312 on: December 26, 2017, 12:19:49 PM »
My hat and my wand, when I use them, do what I want them to do.  That is what relevant means.

Mine never do.  They must be the contrarian peltsish type.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Online Baruch

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Re: Jesus--Fact or Fiction??
« Reply #313 on: December 26, 2017, 01:18:10 PM »
Mine never do.  They must be the contrarian peltsish type.

You cast un-do magic ... not do magic.  That seems self defeating,, if the un-do applies also to the undoing.
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Offline Cavebear

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Re: Jesus--Fact or Fiction??
« Reply #314 on: February 02, 2018, 04:54:17 AM »
You cast un-do magic ... not do magic.  That seems self defeating,, if the un-do applies also to the undoing.

Using the "undo" button on the computer is wonderful.  Especially when you want to undo the "undo".
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

 

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