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Jesus--Fact or Fiction??

Started by Mike Cl, October 04, 2017, 11:15:17 AM

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Baruch

#270
Yes, there were two kinds of fate for Romulus.  And briefly, Augustus thought of renaming himself Romulus, instead of Augustus.  But those two fates ... ascent into a cloud of Jupiter (heavenly father in Latin) and assassination by the Senate (re-created by the conspirators against Julius Caesar) ... didn't sound so good as prototypes.  So Augustus treated his adopted father as a kind of Romulus ... and himself as something else ... a son of a god.  And I have pointed out, in the writings of Virgil. how the encomium on the potential son of Mark Anthony, by the sister of Augustus (his wife at the time) matches the birth narrative of Jesus.  Jesus does the ascent thing ... from the Mt of Olives, off of the altar of the Red Heifer.  So yes, the notion of "scapegoat" is there, but it is just one element of the overlapping metaphors that would be understood by educated contemporaries of Paul.

Also the Johannine theology ... of love.  The secret name of Roma is the word reversed, Amor.

The return of the supposed dead, was first applied to Nero, before it was applied to Jesus.  So in that way, it is a kind of burlesque.  Nero had his detractors, but also his supporters.  And of course, this reappears in the legend of King Arthur.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Mike Cl

Element 48:
Finally, the most ubiquitous model 'hero' narrative, which pagans also revered and to which the Gospel Jesus also conforms, is the fable of the 'divine'king', which I call the Rank-Raglan hero-type, based on the two scholars who discovered and described it, Otto Rank and Lord Raglan.  This is a hero-type found repeated across at least fifteen known mythic heroes (including Jesus)--if w count only those who clearly meet more than half of the designated parallels (which means twelve or more matches out of 22 elements.

The twenty-two features distinctive of this hero-type are:
1.Mother is a royal virgin
2.Father is a king
3.Father often a near relative to mother
4.Unusual conception
5.Hero reputed to be son of god
6.Attempt to kill hero as an infant, often by father or maternal grandfather
7.Hero spirited away as a child
8.Reared by foster parents in a far country
9.No details of childhood
10.Returns or goes to future kingdom
11.Is victor over king, giant, dragon or wild beast
12.Marries a princess (often daughter of predecessor)
13.Becomes king
14.For a time he reigns uneventfully
15.He prescribes laws
16.Later loses favor with gods or his subjects
17.Driven from throne and city
18.Meets with mysterious death
19.Often at the top of a hill
20.His children, if any, do not succeed him
21.His body is not buried
22.Has one or more holy sepulchers or tombs

Jesus scores 20 our of 22, according to Matthew's Gospel.............................................That is a stunning fact, which must be considered, and accounted for.

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Mike Cl

Carrier's Conclusion

The point of this [the 48 Elements] and the previous chapter has been to summarize all the facts we must take into account, as being in our total background knowledge, when assigning all probabilities going forward.  In my experience, a great deal of what has been surveyed up to this point remains unknown even to many experts in the study of Jesus.  This is why I took the trouble to survey so much.  Because all of it must be taken into account by anyone who wishes to reconstruct the historical Jesus or the origins of Christianity.  .............................

He then uses over 400 more pages exploring in detail all 48 elements and what they mean for the historicity of Jesus.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Baruch

Quote from: Mike Cl on November 11, 2017, 10:06:44 AM
Element 48:
Finally, the most ubiquitous model 'hero' narrative, which pagans also revered and to which the Gospel Jesus also conforms, is the fable of the 'divine'king', which I call the Rank-Raglan hero-type, based on the two scholars who discovered and described it, Otto Rank and Lord Raglan.  This is a hero-type found repeated across at least fifteen known mythic heroes (including Jesus)--if w count only those who clearly meet more than half of the designated parallels (which means twelve or more matches out of 22 elements.

The twenty-two features distinctive of this hero-type are:
1.Mother is a royal virgin
2.Father is a king
3.Father often a near relative to mother
4.Unusual conception
5.Hero reputed to be son of god
6.Attempt to kill hero as an infant, often by father or maternal grandfather
7.Hero spirited away as a child
8.Reared by foster parents in a far country
9.No details of childhood
10.Returns or goes to future kingdom
11.Is victor over king, giant, dragon or wild beast
12.Marries a princess (often daughter of predecessor)
13.Becomes king
14.For a time he reigns uneventfully
15.He prescribes laws
16.Later loses favor with gods or his subjects
17.Driven from throne and city
18.Meets with mysterious death
19.Often at the top of a hill
20.His children, if any, do not succeed him
21.His body is not buried
22.Has one or more holy sepulchers or tombs

Jesus scores 20 our of 22, according to Matthew's Gospel.............................................That is a stunning fact, which must be considered, and accounted for.

"Hero With A Thousand Faces" by Joseph Campbell
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Cavebear

Quote from: Mike Cl on November 11, 2017, 10:06:44 AM
Element 48:

Jesus scores 20 our of 22, according to Matthew's Gospel.............................................That is a stunning fact, which must be considered, and accounted for.

Thank you for that.  I tried to explain something similar on another site (non-religious) years ago but did not have my ideas so organized or based, and got laughed at. 

I understand most of the ideas.  They have to be unusual situations or no one would notice or care.   
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Baruch

Quote from: Cavebear on November 11, 2017, 10:20:30 AM
Thank you for that.  I tried to explain something similar on another site (non-religious) years ago but did not have my ideas so organized or based, and got laughed at. 

I understand most of the ideas.  They have to be unusual situations or no one would notice or care.   

Our sense of heroes now derives from scifi.  So the outline is a bit different now.  Divine kings are not popular, except in Saudi Arabia.  Cyrano De Bergerac was the first modern science fiction writer, long before Jules Verne.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Cavebear

Quote from: Baruch on November 11, 2017, 10:24:12 AM
Our sense of heroes now derives from scifi. 

Yuri Gagarin, Alan Shepard, John Glenn, John McCain, Neil Armstrong, that chinese guy standing front of the tank...
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Baruch

#277
Quote from: Cavebear on November 11, 2017, 12:14:12 PM
Quote from: Baruch on November 11, 2017, 10:24:12 AM
Our sense of heroes now derives from scifi. 

Yuri Gagarin, Alan Shepard, John Glenn, John McCain, Neil Armstrong, that chinese guy standing front of the tank...


The Chinese guy was probably shot along with many of the other protestors.  China is your friend.  Sorry, John McCain was a screw-up, a near-do-well of an admiral's son.  But I sympathize with that.  Other captives said he .. broke under pressure.  Neil Armstrong was a hero, with about a million NASA people etc behind him, same with the other astronauts and cosmonauts.  I used to believe in the space program, I participated in it ... but understand it now to be a distraction from political dirty tricks .... like Hitler and the Volkswagen.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Mike Cl

Quote from: Cavebear on November 11, 2017, 10:20:30 AM
Thank you for that.  I tried to explain something similar on another site (non-religious) years ago but did not have my ideas so organized or based, and got laughed at. 

I understand most of the ideas.  They have to be unusual situations or no one would notice or care.   
Feel free to cut and paste to your heart's content.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Mike Cl

Quote from: Cavebear on November 11, 2017, 10:20:30 AM
Thank you for that.  I tried to explain something similar on another site (non-religious) years ago but did not have my ideas so organized or based, and got laughed at. 

I understand most of the ideas.  They have to be unusual situations or no one would notice or care.   
Cavebear, I think you would like Carrier's book.  Not only does he write in great detail, but highly footnotes everything.  One can easily go to his sources and branch out as one wishes.  It is a great reference book to have if nothing else.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Cavebear

Quote from: Mike Cl on November 11, 2017, 01:34:03 PM
Cavebear, I think you would like Carrier's book.  Not only does he write in great detail, but highly footnotes everything.  One can easily go to his sources and branch out as one wishes.  It is a great reference book to have if nothing else.

On The Historicity Of Jesus?  Amazon wants $35 for a paperback?  I already doubt the historiosity of jesus.  Convince me to spend $35.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Baruch

Quote from: Cavebear on November 11, 2017, 01:57:46 PM
On The Historicity Of Jesus?  Amazon wants $35 for a paperback?  I already doubt the historiosity of jesus.  Convince me to spend $35.

It will make your wallet more hole-y ;-)
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Cavebear

Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Baruch

Quote from: Cavebear on November 11, 2017, 02:01:54 PM
Have YOU read it?

When I get a competent summary from MikeCL?  Why?  But I buy other books all the time, and read them.  Sometimes more than once.  That is in addition to my Internet addiction.  I have a whole library on Christianity, from then I was married to my pastor.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Cavebear

Quote from: Baruch on November 11, 2017, 02:04:52 PM
When I get a competent summary from MikeCL?  Why? 

Thank you.  I just ordered it.  LOL!
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!