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Jesus--Fact or Fiction??

Started by Mike Cl, October 04, 2017, 11:15:17 AM

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Unbeliever

Quote from: Baruch on November 05, 2017, 09:04:13 AM
Righteous King theology was hijacked by the Maccabees, which seriously disrupted the High Priesthood and led to the Pharisee movement, to put lay people in charge of the Temple.  The original Righteous King/false messiah was King Josiah of Judah, circa 620 BCE, 500 years earlier.
And it was during Josiah's reign that the "book of the Law" was "discovered" while renovations of the Temple were under way.
God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

Baruch

Quote from: Mike Cl on November 08, 2017, 09:17:36 AM
Element 45:
A popular version of this phenomenon in ancient faith literature was the practice of euhemerization:  the taking of a cosmic god and placing him at a definite point in history as an actual person who was later deified.  We already noted Plutrach's criticism of the trend (which he frowns upon, but in so doing concedes its popularity) in Element 14.

Euhemerus was a Greek writer of the early third century bce, who wrote a book called The Sacred Scriptures in which he depicted an imaginary scholar discovering that Zeus and Uranus were once actual kings.  In the process Euhemerus invents a history for these 'god kings', even though we know there is no plausible case to be made that either Zeus or Uranus was ever a real person.  Yet the idea caught on; biographies and histories of non-existent people proliferated, and ancient literature flowered with attempts to assign mythic heroes and gods to real historical periods and places.  .....................And many other uses were found for the procedure, as we saw for inventing King Arthur, Ned Ludd, Abraham, Moses, and other national heroes I explored in Chapter 1.  There is nothing at all unusual about doing this.

Chronos, not Uranus ;-)  Are you a Vulcan, or a Hephaestus?
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Baruch

Quote from: Mike Cl on November 08, 2017, 10:03:45 AM
He already has one of the best in the history of the world!

Religion, new and improved!  Same old marketing.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Mike Cl

Quote from: Baruch on November 08, 2017, 06:56:33 PM
Chronos, not Uranus ;-)  Are you a Vulcan, or a Hephaestus?
Since I'm copying Carrier at this point, I don't really know.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Mike Cl

Quote from: Baruch on November 08, 2017, 06:57:11 PM
Religion, new and improved!  Same old marketing.
Get your Miracle Spring Water--call this number. 

Yeah, isn't it always new and improved.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Baruch

Quote from: Mike Cl on November 08, 2017, 07:57:56 PM
Get your Miracle Spring Water--call this number. 

Yeah, isn't it always new and improved.

Worked for Ponce De Leone ;-)
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Mike Cl

Quote from: Baruch on November 09, 2017, 05:34:23 AM
Worked for Ponce De Leone ;-)
As it does for most 'faith' leaders, their particular scam works for them because the flock of sheeple don't care about facts, only beliefs and the blinder the better.  Popoff has been revealed as a scam artist several times, yet he still makes millions from his Miracle Spring Water scam.  But then, Jesus as a real person is a scam that has been working for much, much longer.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Mike Cl

Element 46:
Ancient literature also proliferated a variety of model 'hero' narratives, some of which the Gospel Jesus conforms to as well.........................

The fact that this [hero narrative] was a recognized and widely revered hero narrative puts the lie to any claim that Christians were in any way radical in conforming their Jesus to it.  In fact, even if Jesus existed, we still must worry about how much of his narrative is being forced into this model for that very reason and therefore still not historically true.

We can add to all of this that Socrates, like Jesus, turned the other cheek and forgave the enemies who had caused his death.  We can likewise add that Aesop and Jesus were both itinerant preachers in a peripheral region who ended up in a central holy city, and were both plotted against and executed by its priests (Delphi for Aesop; Jerusalem for Jesus).  Likewise, for Aesop a 'gospel' was written about his birth, life, teachings and death, and many different redactions were then made of it, just as happened for Jesus. 

Socrates we can be certain was a historical person.  But Aesop is not likely to have been.  There is no strong evidence that Aesop ever actually lived (he is supposed to have flourished in the seventh century bce), much less wrote the fables attributed to him.  But even if either is true, the biographies written about him are still unlikely to have any basis in fact, and no historian today believes they are.  Aesop was more likely invented to place a name to a growing collection of fables passed down from numerous oral sources.  Historical facts were then invented about him, and then detailed biographies were written, in some respects similar to the Gospels.  If that's what happened, then Aesop would be an example of a mythical person who 'became' the historical author of a collection of parables he didn't in fact write (which are often similar in moral and symbolic purpose to the parables of Jesus), and then about whom fictional biographies were written, which were then passed off as fact.  It's easy to see how this could happen for Aesop.  So in principle the same could have happened for Jesus.

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Mike Cl

As a sort of guide of the ancient hero type, I've cut and pasted this list from a non-Carrier site.  I do so, since Elements 46, 47, and 48 deal with model; and expands upon it.  But his is a good place to start.  Jesus' life could easily fit this model.


The hero’s mother is a royal virgin;
His father is a king, and
Often a near relative of his mother, but
The circumstances of his conception are unusual, and
He is also reputed to be the son of a god.
At birth, an attempt is made, usually by his father or his maternal grandfather, to kill him, but
He is spirited away, and
Reared by foster parents in a far country.
We are told nothing of his childhood, but
On reaching manhood he returns or goes to his future kingdom.
After a victory over the king and/or a giant, dragon, or wild beast,
He marries a princess, often the daughter of a predecessor, and
Becomes king.
For a time he reigns uneventfully, and
Prescribes laws, but
Later loses favour with the gods and/or his subjects, and
Is driven from the throne and city, after which
He meets with a mysterious death
Often at the top of a hill
His body is not buried, but nevertheless
He has one or more holy sepulchres.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Baruch

Quote from: Mike Cl on November 09, 2017, 09:38:54 AM
Element 46:
Ancient literature also proliferated a variety of model 'hero' narratives, some of which the Gospel Jesus conforms to as well.........................

The fact that this [hero narrative] was a recognized and widely revered hero narrative puts the lie to any claim that Christians were in any way radical in conforming their Jesus to it.  In fact, even if Jesus existed, we still must worry about how much of his narrative is being forced into this model for that very reason and therefore still not historically true.

We can add to all of this that Socrates, like Jesus, turned the other cheek and forgave the enemies who had caused his death.  We can likewise add that Aesop and Jesus were both itinerant preachers in a peripheral region who ended up in a central holy city, and were both plotted against and executed by its priests (Delphi for Aesop; Jerusalem for Jesus).  Likewise, for Aesop a 'gospel' was written about his birth, life, teachings and death, and many different redactions were then made of it, just as happened for Jesus. 

Socrates we can be certain was a historical person.  But Aesop is not likely to have been.  There is no strong evidence that Aesop ever actually lived (he is supposed to have flourished in the seventh century bce), much less wrote the fables attributed to him.  But even if either is true, the biographies written about him are still unlikely to have any basis in fact, and no historian today believes they are.  Aesop was more likely invented to place a name to a growing collection of fables passed down from numerous oral sources.  Historical facts were then invented about him, and then detailed biographies were written, in some respects similar to the Gospels.  If that's what happened, then Aesop would be an example of a mythical person who 'became' the historical author of a collection of parables he didn't in fact write (which are often similar in moral and symbolic purpose to the parables of Jesus), and then about whom fictional biographies were written, which were then passed off as fact.  It's easy to see how this could happen for Aesop.  So in principle the same could have happened for Jesus.

The same is probably true for Homer as well.  People from legendary times are usually ... legendary.

Even if there was a historical Jesus, we can ask how much of his self understanding was conditioned by all the stuff that Carrier brings forward?
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

trdsf

Quote from: Mike Cl on November 09, 2017, 09:42:07 AM
As a sort of guide of the ancient hero type, I've cut and pasted this list from a non-Carrier site.  I do so, since Elements 46, 47, and 48 deal with model; and expands upon it.  But his is a good place to start.  Jesus' life could easily fit this model.


The hero’s mother is a royal virgin;
His father is a king, and
Often a near relative of his mother, but
The circumstances of his conception are unusual, and
He is also reputed to be the son of a god.
At birth, an attempt is made, usually by his father or his maternal grandfather, to kill him, but
He is spirited away, and
Reared by foster parents in a far country.
We are told nothing of his childhood, but
On reaching manhood he returns or goes to his future kingdom.
After a victory over the king and/or a giant, dragon, or wild beast,
He marries a princess, often the daughter of a predecessor, and
Becomes king.
For a time he reigns uneventfully, and
Prescribes laws, but
Later loses favour with the gods and/or his subjects, and
Is driven from the throne and city, after which
He meets with a mysterious death
Often at the top of a hill
His body is not buried, but nevertheless
He has one or more holy sepulchres.
Fits many of them, in fact.  Some with minor modifications.  Let's see.  Mom's alleged to be a virgin, dad's a powerful figure (we can broaden 'king' to include 'deity', I think), circumstances of conception are unusual, reputedly son of a god, attempt on his life at birth, spirited away, raised in another country, virtually no details about childhood, makes laws, loses favor with the locals, meets his death, it's on a hill, entombed rather than buried, multiple sites identified in the records.  That's fourteen out of twenty-one, and I was being picky
"My faith in the Constitution is whole, it is complete, it is total, and I am not going to sit here and be an idle spectator to the diminution, the subversion, the destruction of the Constitution." -- Barbara Jordan

Mike Cl

Quote from: Baruch on November 09, 2017, 12:52:43 PM
The same is probably true for Homer as well.  People from legendary times are usually ... legendary.

Even if there was a historical Jesus, we can ask how much of his self understanding was conditioned by all the stuff that Carrier brings forward?
I would say that if Jesus were historical that we would be asking how much of his 'message' was borrowed from those that came before.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Baruch

Quote from: Mike Cl on November 09, 2017, 02:37:14 PM
I would say that if Jesus were historical that we would be asking how much of his 'message' was borrowed from those that came before.

Very few people are really original ... except me ;-)
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Mike Cl

Quote from: Baruch on November 09, 2017, 07:48:13 PM
Very few people are really original ... except me ;-)
Yeah--that's true.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Mike Cl

Element 47:
Another model hero narrative, which pagans also revered and to which the Gospel Jesus also conforms, is the apotheosis, or 'ascension to godhood' tale, and of these the one to which the Gospels (and Acts) most conform is that of the Roman national hero Romulus. 

The more general point is that this narrative concept of a 'translation to heaven' for a hero (often but not always a divine son of god) was very commonplace, and always centered around a peculiar fable about the disappearance of their body.  And when it comes to the Romulus fable in particular, the evidence is unmistakable that Christianity conformed itself to it relatively quickly--even if all these attributes were accumulated over time and not all at once.

Romulus, of course, did not exist.  He was invented from previous Greek and Etruscan mythology) much later in Roman history than he is supposed to have lived.

The Gospels conform to the Romulus model most specifically.  There are twenty parallels, although not every story contained every one.  In some cases that may simply be the result of selection or abbreviation ibn the sources we have (and therefore the silence of one source does not entail the element did not then exist or was not known to that author):  and in some cases elements might have been deliberately removed (or even reversed) by an author who wanted to promote a different message. 


But when taken altogether the Romulus and Jesus death-and-resurrection narratives contain all of the following parallels;
1 . The hero is the son of God.
2. His death is accompanied by prodigies.
3. The land is covered in darkness.
4. The hero's corpse goes missing.
5. The hero receives a new immortal body, superior to the one he had.
6. His resurrection body has on occasion a bright and shining appearance.
7. After his resurrection he meets with a follower on a road from the city.
8. A speech is given from a summit or high place prior to ascending.
9. An inspired message of resurrection or 'translation to heaven' is delivered to a witness.
10. There is a 'great commission' (an instruction to future followers).
11 . The hero physically ascends to heaven in his new divine body.
12. He is taken up into a cloud.
13. There is an explicit role given to eyewitness testimony (even naming the witnesses).
14. Witnesses are frightened by his appearance and/or disappearance.
15. Some witnesses flee.
16. Claims are made of 'dubious alternative accounts' (which claims were obviously fabricated for Romulus, there never having been a true
account to begin with).
17. All of this occurs outside of a nearby (but central) city.
18. His followers are initially in sorrow over the hero's death.
19. But his post-resurrection story leads to eventual belief, homage and
rejoicing.
20. The hero is deified and cult subsequently paid to him (in the same manner as a god).

Romulus, of course, was also unjustly killed by the authorities (and came from a humble background, beginning his career as an orphan and shepherd, a nobody from the hill country), and thus also overlaps the Aesop-Socratic type (Element 46), and it's easy to see that by combining the two, we end up with pretty much the Christian Gospel in outline.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?