How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?

Started by Goon, October 03, 2017, 12:37:53 AM

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popsthebuilder

Quote from: Blackleaf on October 29, 2017, 03:38:49 PM
Regardless, choosing to focus on the person instead of the contents of their arguments is a sure sign that someone doesn't have a leg to stand on.
Agreed.

Blackleaf

Quote from: Baruch on October 29, 2017, 03:18:00 PM
My movement of my hand, is my refutation of predetermination.  I don't need to believe in anything, including free will.  Belief is weak, fact is strong.  The Bible says many things, being a discordant anthology.  But that part which encourages irresponsibility "G-d made me do it" ... is devilry.

If God is omnipotent and omniscient, by logical necessity your hand movement was a detail in God's design. I used to be in a club that designed and programmed LEGO robots. We built them, we told them what path to take, what things to lift, etc. We are God's LEGO robot, except unlike my club, God has no room for error. But then, neither of us believe in that sort of a god, do we?
"Oh, wearisome condition of humanity,
Born under one law, to another bound;
Vainly begot, and yet forbidden vanity,
Created sick, commanded to be sound."
--Fulke Greville--

popsthebuilder

Quote from: Blackleaf on October 29, 2017, 03:47:12 PM
If God is omnipotent and omniscient, by logical necessity your hand movement was a detail in God's design. I used to be in a club that designed and programmed LEGO robots. We built them, we told them what path to take, what things to lift, etc. We are God's LEGO robot, except unlike my club, God has no room for error. But then, neither of us believe in that sort of a god, do we?
There is no error in designed freedom given.

Baruch

Quote from: Blackleaf on October 29, 2017, 03:47:12 PM
If God is omnipotent and omniscient, by logical necessity your hand movement was a detail in God's design. I used to be in a club that designed and programmed LEGO robots. We built them, we told them what path to take, what things to lift, etc. We are God's LEGO robot, except unlike my club, God has no room for error. But then, neither of us believe in that sort of a god, do we?

Absolutely not ... on omnipotence and omniscience, nor do I agree with Drew in regards to man-made universes in a PC.  Descartes discussed the notion of an evil demon who decided everything:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evil_demon

Though I do have to think on the omnipresence of G-d ... but who is everywhere, is also no where ... hence presence of such is not obvious.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Baruch

Quote from: popsthebuilder on October 29, 2017, 04:55:13 PM
There is no error in designed freedom given.

Moralists would say that free will is an error, if not creation itself.

I have to consider ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dystheism
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

popsthebuilder

Quote from: Baruch on October 29, 2017, 04:57:42 PM
Moralists would say that free will is an error, if not creation itself.

I have to consider ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dystheism
Moralists would be wrong.

How evil would it be for us to be bound to any law?

GOD created existence knowing well what would happen, yet not allowing our freedom (evil by the hands) would be to imprison creation.

Hakurei Reimu

I find very little difference between setting up creation in such a way that it plays out according to a divine plan, and "imprisoning" creation. It's merely semantics. Either God is complacent in the evil man commits, or he is powerless to prevent it and there's no meaningful divine plan.

Is man able to fuck up God's divine plan, assuming one exists? Either answer holds very interesting consequences.

Theodicy is still a problem for you folks even after two thousand years. I'm not holding my breath for any answers.
Warning: Don't Tease The Miko!
(she bites!)
Spinny Miko Avatar shamelessly ripped off from Iosys' Neko Miko Reimu

Hydra009



aitm

Quote from: popsthebuilder on October 29, 2017, 06:10:14 PM
GOD created existence knowing well what would happen, yet not allowing our freedom (evil by the hands) would be to imprison creation.

And not content to allow man to "d"evolve on his own, he then "created" the devil to further tempt those whose misery he purposefully designed so he could enjoy watching the misery and fear he himself can never feel. You make a greater case for the hatred of your "god" than "he" himself can.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

popsthebuilder

Quote from: aitm on October 29, 2017, 07:50:15 PM
And not content to allow man to "d"evolve on his own, he then "created" the devil to further tempt those whose misery he purposefully designed so he could enjoy watching the misery and fear he himself can never feel. You make a greater case for the hatred of your "god" than "he" himself can.
The devil?

Freedom lies within the vessel,  and with it; the potential to seek out and or follow whichever inclinations you desire.

You too seem to speak of what you don't actually know.

SGOS

Quote from: popsthebuilder on October 29, 2017, 07:40:46 PM
Just a truthful statement.
Actually, article of faith is correct.  Sincere, maybe.  Truthful?  I don't think that qualifies as truth, unless you define truth as belief, but that's incorrect usage.

Mike Cl

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Mike Cl

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Baruch

Quote from: popsthebuilder on October 29, 2017, 06:10:14 PM
Moralists would be wrong.

How evil would it be for us to be bound to any law?

GOD created existence knowing well what would happen, yet not allowing our freedom (evil by the hands) would be to imprison creation.

I don't accept omniscience.  It is denied in Genesis.  And Creation isn't imprisoned, again see Genesis.  G-d doesn't know the future, because of free will etc.  I don't accept any laws, sorry.  The legalistic model of reality only works for crooked lawyers, jurists and politicians.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.