How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?

Started by Goon, October 03, 2017, 12:37:53 AM

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popsthebuilder

Quote from: Baruch on October 29, 2017, 10:45:14 PM
I don't accept omniscience.  It is denied in Genesis.  And Creation isn't imprisoned, again see Genesis.  G-d doesn't know the future, because of free will etc.  I don't accept any laws, sorry.  The legalistic model of reality only works for crooked lawyers, jurists and politicians.
There are readily observable laws that bind existence

Mike Cl

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Blackleaf

Quote from: popsthebuilder on October 29, 2017, 07:40:46 PM
Just a truthful statement.

Are you going to provide any actual arguments to support your claim, or are you just going to say it is so?
"Oh, wearisome condition of humanity,
Born under one law, to another bound;
Vainly begot, and yet forbidden vanity,
Created sick, commanded to be sound."
--Fulke Greville--

popsthebuilder

Quote from: Blackleaf on October 30, 2017, 11:25:14 AM
Are you going to provide any actual arguments to support your claim, or are you just going to say it is so?
My argument is that our freedom or freewill is the product of the will of GOD.

Unbeliever

God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

popsthebuilder

Quote from: Unbeliever on October 30, 2017, 01:51:25 PM
That's not an argument, it's an assertion.
Well then my argument would be that destiny and freedom are not contradictory.

Unbeliever

God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

Blackleaf

Quote from: popsthebuilder on October 30, 2017, 01:56:41 PM
Well then my argument would be that destiny and freedom are not contradictory.

And your evidence would be...? You can't just claim two obviously contradictory things are not really contradictory. Demonstrate it through logic, examples, evidence, etc.
"Oh, wearisome condition of humanity,
Born under one law, to another bound;
Vainly begot, and yet forbidden vanity,
Created sick, commanded to be sound."
--Fulke Greville--

popsthebuilder

Quote from: Blackleaf on October 30, 2017, 02:46:58 PM
And your evidence would be...? You can't just claim two obviously contradictory things are not really contradictory. Demonstrate it through logic, examples, evidence, etc.
If GOD is omniscient and we have freewill then concluding that it is the will of that which created all existence for us to have said freedom is a simple and logical. Obviously one would have to believe in an omniscient creator of all existence for that to be even a possibility to them.

I don't believe GOD to be evil, but the freedom of man has the GOD given potential for evil as is necessitated by said freedom.


Mike Cl

Quote from: popsthebuilder on October 30, 2017, 04:55:43 PM
If GOD is omniscient and we have freewill then concluding that it is the will of that which created all existence for us to have said freedom is a simple and logical. Obviously one would have to believe in an omniscient creator of all existence for that to be even a possibility to them.

I don't believe GOD to be evil, but the freedom of man has the GOD given potential for evil as is necessitated by said freedom.
Oh, Wow!  Let me pick myself up off the floor--the crystal clear truth of those arguments just floored me!!  The scales just dropped from my eyes!! 

Damn Pops, with arguments like that how can anybody not see that there is a God????

Pops, if a fact walked up and bit you in the butt, you'd still not see it.  Your ignorance boarders on stupidity.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Blackleaf

Quote from: popsthebuilder on October 30, 2017, 04:55:43 PM
If GOD is omniscient and we have freewill then concluding that it is the will of that which created all existence for us to have said freedom is a simple and logical. Obviously one would have to believe in an omniscient creator of all existence for that to be even a possibility to them.

I don't believe GOD to be evil, but the freedom of man has the GOD given potential for evil as is necessitated by said freedom.

Can God create a rock he can't lift too?
"Oh, wearisome condition of humanity,
Born under one law, to another bound;
Vainly begot, and yet forbidden vanity,
Created sick, commanded to be sound."
--Fulke Greville--

popsthebuilder

Quote from: Blackleaf on October 30, 2017, 09:04:37 PM
Can God create a rock he can't lift too?
Omniscience, nor the understanding there of, is limited to word games or parlor tricks.

fencerider

Where in the Bible does it say that that god is omniscient?

course we all know that the god of the Bible doesn’t always allow freewill. He intentionally manipulated Pharoah just so he could show of his plague tricks with Moses. He even manipulated Pharoah a final time so he would have an excuse to kill Egyptian boys. There are many other references in the Bible that talk about god manipulatng someone to do something for him... all the way up to blinding people from the truth to keep them from repenting
"Do you believe in god?", is not a proper English sentence. Unless you believe that, "Do you believe in apple?", is a proper English sentence.

Cavebear

Quote from: fencerider on October 31, 2017, 12:59:11 AM
Where in the Bible does it say that that god is omniscient?

course we all know that the god of the Bible doesn’t always allow freewill. He intentionally manipulated Pharoah just so he could show of his plague tricks with Moses. He even manipulated Pharoah a final time so he would have an excuse to kill Egyptian boys. There are many other references in the Bible that talk about god manipulatng someone to do something for him... all the way up to blinding people from the truth to keep them from repenting

If there is a true deity, it knows and controls all that it chooses to control.  And choosing not to control is also control.

If not, there isn't. 

I see no evidence of the first.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!