Author Topic: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?  (Read 9489 times)

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Regardless, choosing to focus on the person instead of the contents of their arguments is a sure sign that someone doesn't have a leg to stand on.
Agreed.

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My movement of my hand, is my refutation of predetermination.  I don't need to believe in anything, including free will.  Belief is weak, fact is strong.  The Bible says many things, being a discordant anthology.  But that part which encourages irresponsibility "G-d made me do it" ... is devilry.

If God is omnipotent and omniscient, by logical necessity your hand movement was a detail in God's design. I used to be in a club that designed and programmed LEGO robots. We built them, we told them what path to take, what things to lift, etc. We are God's LEGO robot, except unlike my club, God has no room for error. But then, neither of us believe in that sort of a god, do we?
"Oh, wearisome condition of humanity,
Born under one law, to another bound;
Vainly begot, and yet forbidden vanity,
Created sick, commanded to be sound."
--Fulke Greville

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If God is omnipotent and omniscient, by logical necessity your hand movement was a detail in God's design. I used to be in a club that designed and programmed LEGO robots. We built them, we told them what path to take, what things to lift, etc. We are God's LEGO robot, except unlike my club, God has no room for error. But then, neither of us believe in that sort of a god, do we?
There is no error in designed freedom given.

Offline Baruch

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If God is omnipotent and omniscient, by logical necessity your hand movement was a detail in God's design. I used to be in a club that designed and programmed LEGO robots. We built them, we told them what path to take, what things to lift, etc. We are God's LEGO robot, except unlike my club, God has no room for error. But then, neither of us believe in that sort of a god, do we?

Absolutely not ... on omnipotence and omniscience, nor do I agree with Drew in regards to man-made universes in a PC.  Descartes discussed the notion of an evil demon who decided everything:

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Though I do have to think on the omnipresence of G-d ... but who is everywhere, is also no where ... hence presence of such is not obvious.
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Offline Baruch

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There is no error in designed freedom given.

Moralists would say that free will is an error, if not creation itself.

I have to consider ...

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« Last Edit: October 29, 2017, 05:00:43 PM by Baruch »
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Moralists would say that free will is an error, if not creation itself.

I have to consider ...

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Moralists would be wrong.

How evil would it be for us to be bound to any law?

GOD created existence knowing well what would happen, yet not allowing our freedom (evil by the hands) would be to imprison creation.

Offline Hakurei Reimu

I find very little difference between setting up creation in such a way that it plays out according to a divine plan, and "imprisoning" creation. It's merely semantics. Either God is complacent in the evil man commits, or he is powerless to prevent it and there's no meaningful divine plan.

Is man able to fuck up God's divine plan, assuming one exists? Either answer holds very interesting consequences.

Theodicy is still a problem for you folks even after two thousand years. I'm not holding my breath for any answers.
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Online Hydra009

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There is no error in designed freedom given.
That sounds suspiciously like an article of faith.

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That sounds suspiciously like an article of faith.
Just a truthful statement.

Offline aitm

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GOD created existence knowing well what would happen, yet not allowing our freedom (evil by the hands) would be to imprison creation.

And not content to allow man to "d"evolve on his own, he then "created" the devil to further tempt those whose misery he purposefully designed so he could enjoy watching the misery and fear he himself can never feel. You make a greater case for the hatred of your "god" than "he" himself can.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

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And not content to allow man to "d"evolve on his own, he then "created" the devil to further tempt those whose misery he purposefully designed so he could enjoy watching the misery and fear he himself can never feel. You make a greater case for the hatred of your "god" than "he" himself can.
The devil?

Freedom lies within the vessel,  and with it; the potential to seek out and or follow whichever inclinations you desire.

You too seem to speak of what you don't actually know.

Offline SGOS

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Just a truthful statement.
Actually, article of faith is correct.  Sincere, maybe.  Truthful?  I don't think that qualifies as truth, unless you define truth as belief, but that's incorrect usage.

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Just a truthful statement.
I don't remember reading any 'truthful' statements from you.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

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You too seem to speak of what you don't actually know.
And you do. ??
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Offline Baruch

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Moralists would be wrong.

How evil would it be for us to be bound to any law?

GOD created existence knowing well what would happen, yet not allowing our freedom (evil by the hands) would be to imprison creation.

I don't accept omniscience.  It is denied in Genesis.  And Creation isn't imprisoned, again see Genesis.  G-d doesn't know the future, because of free will etc.  I don't accept any laws, sorry.  The legalistic model of reality only works for crooked lawyers, jurists and politicians.
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