How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?

Started by Goon, October 03, 2017, 12:37:53 AM

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Baruch

Quote from: Blackleaf on November 04, 2017, 12:41:09 PM
Being a former theist, I still remember what it was like to be on the other side of the fence. But I also remember how much more clearly I saw the world after I gave up my belief, and I know how futile it is to try to point out the weaknesses in the kind of flawed logic I used to employ. The brains of the devout simply work differently than those of skeptics.

Skepticism is good, just don't go full skeptic, or you are a full retard ;-)
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Hakurei Reimu

Quote from: popsthebuilder on November 02, 2017, 10:08:23 PM
Not at all.

You are playing daft.

In part of first grade ( less than half a school year I think) I actually went to a Christian school. I recall wondering why dinosaurs weren't explained.

Past that I had very little exposure other than my grandmother saying blessing on thanksgiving.
"Very little exposure"? Nobody said "God bless you"? You didn't celebrate Christmas? Were there no churches in the area? Did you not read Shakespeare, or most other English literature? Did you hear no incidents about the Ten Commandments being put on courthouse lawns, or Kitzmiller v. Dover, or other religious kerfuffles? Because unless you were living on an island somewhere, I very much doubt it.

So, yeah, you knew what the Christian god was and you even spent half a year where people tried to hammer it into your skull as a viable explanation for the world. I would call that priming.

Quote from: popsthebuilder on November 02, 2017, 10:08:23 PM
From very near first grade if not during I became an atheist. I went from some level or form of atheism to some level of agnosticism and back to atheism as a surety later in adolescence I guess. I couldn't justifiably believe in GOD because of observable pain in existence.
And yet, when you committed yourself to theism, you didn't go with Hindu gods, or Norse gods, or Greek gods, or Egyptian gods, but the Christian god. Funny coincidence that, when you decided that a god was part of the truth, it's the god that you had the most exposure to.

Anyway, while you may not call yourself a Christian, it still doesn't negate my point. The fact that you think that you "experienced" your god is neither here nor there. I don't doubt that you experienced something that changed your life, and changed you from what you would call an atheist into someone who believed in the Christian god, but going to call it a "god" is not warranted, especially if you have no extraordinary proof to back up your claims. And no, just because a tribe of near-ignorant goat-hearders from the first century wrote down something that sounds like what you experienced in retrospect doesn't prove your god either, because that could have been easily the result of your priming in the first grade, your brain revising that exprience (as we know brains are wont to do), or a combination of both. I don't even necessarily believe you when you say that you were ever an atheist, because an uncomfortable proportion of people who say that are either mistaken or lying.

So when you talk about things you "know to be true" on account of things you "experienced personally," no, you don't. Yours is a claim too extraordinary for your personal experience to sustain. You may find it convincing, but don't expect anyone else to take it seriously.
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popsthebuilder

Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on November 05, 2017, 08:17:14 PM
"Very little exposure"? Nobody said "God bless you"? You didn't celebrate Christmas? Were there no churches in the area? Did you not read Shakespeare, or most other English literature? Did you hear no incidents about the Ten Commandments being put on courthouse lawns, or Kitzmiller v. Dover, or other religious kerfuffles? Because unless you were living on an island somewhere, I very much doubt it.

So, yeah, you knew what the Christian god was and you even spent half a year where people tried to hammer it into your skull as a viable explanation for the world. I would call that priming.
And yet, when you committed yourself to theism, you didn't go with Hindu gods, or Norse gods, or Greek gods, or Egyptian gods, but the Christian god. Funny coincidence that, when you decided that a god was part of the truth, it's the god that you had the most exposure to.

Anyway, while you may not call yourself a Christian, it still doesn't negate my point. The fact that you think that you "experienced" your god is neither here nor there. I don't doubt that you experienced something that changed your life, and changed you from what you would call an atheist into someone who believed in the Christian god, but going to call it a "god" is not warranted, especially if you have no extraordinary proof to back up your claims. And no, just because a tribe of near-ignorant goat-hearders from the first century wrote down something that sounds like what you experienced in retrospect doesn't prove your god either, because that could have been easily the result of your priming in the first grade, your brain revising that exprience (as we know brains are wont to do), or a combination of both. I don't even necessarily believe you when you say that you were ever an atheist, because an uncomfortable proportion of people who say that are either mistaken or lying.

So when you talk about things you "know to be true" on account of things you "experienced personally," no, you don't. Yours is a claim too extraordinary for your personal experience to sustain. You may find it convincing, but don't expect anyone else to take it seriously.
I really have no interest in speaking with you if you are just going to repeayedly assume things. I have studied the Gita and upinashads. I actually read the Gita at the same time I read the new testament, and finished it first.

Let me make this clear so you can stop assuming so much. I am a monotheist.

I believe there is One GOD; not a separate GOD for each religion. I wouldn't be offended if you said I had Hindu beliefs. Many sorts of hindus understand that though there are many gods there is ultimately only One CREATOR GOD of which all is of.

aitm

Quote from: popsthebuilder on October 31, 2017, 09:29:49 PM

It is my personal belief that some of this misdirection is still within the OT; for good reason. Basically I am saying that GOD would not have ordered the slaughter...

So....in other words....."allow me to cherry pick the verses that are relevant and truthful and to enlighten you as to the ones that are simply not".....oh my...how.....original
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

popsthebuilder

Quote from: aitm on November 05, 2017, 09:03:50 PM
So....in other words....."allow me to cherry pick the verses that are relevant and truthful and to enlighten you as to the ones that are simply not".....oh my...how.....original
No.

I would recommend your own comparative study of sacred texts and see that mercy, unity,  and equality has always been the underlying message. That, and that the Spirit is within each of us as potential at very least.

Hakurei Reimu

Quote from: popsthebuilder on November 05, 2017, 08:29:59 PM
I really have no interest in speaking with you if you are just going to repeayedly assume things. I have studied the Gita and upinashads. I actually read the Gita at the same time I read the new testament, and finished it first.
So? Even though you finished the Gita first, you still went with the Christian god, which â€"coincidence of coincidenceâ€" is the one you had earliest exposure to. Your own testimony and behavior, not my "assumptions," lead me to the conclusion that you had been primed by Christian doctrine to believe in the Christian god. You did say, after all, that you had gone to a Christian school for half of first grade.

Quote from: popsthebuilder on November 05, 2017, 08:29:59 PM
Let me make this clear so you can stop assuming so much. I am a monotheist.

I believe there is One GOD; not a separate GOD for each religion. I wouldn't be offended if you said I had Hindu beliefs. Many sorts of hindus understand that though there are many gods there is ultimately only One CREATOR GOD of which all is of.
How does this prove you're not a Christian? You're certainly arrogant enough to be one by claiming the truth of the nature of the universe based on your experience. Christians don't think there's one god for each religion; they think there's one god, period â€" they, too, are monotheist. Furthermore, the god you went with is the one described by the Christian bible. As such, he would differ in quite significant ways from any Hinduist god; the two religions make very different claims to the nature of other claimed gods, for example.

Perhaps it's best that you don't respond to me, then, if this is the kind of discussion I can expect from you.
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popsthebuilder

Quote from: Hakurei Reimu on November 05, 2017, 09:38:00 PM
So? Even though you finished the Gita first, you still went with the Christian god, which â€"coincidence of coincidenceâ€" is the one you had earliest exposure to. Your own testimony and behavior, not my "assumptions," lead me to the conclusion that you had been primed by Christian doctrine to believe in the Christian god. You did say, after all, that you had gone to a Christian school for half of first grade.
How does this prove you're not a Christian? You're certainly arrogant enough to be one by claiming the truth of the nature of the universe based on your experience. Christians don't think there's one god for each religion; they think there's one god, period â€" they, too, are monotheist. Furthermore, the god you went with is the one described by the Christian bible. As such, he would differ in quite significant ways from any Hinduist god; the two religions make very different claims to the nature of other claimed gods, for example.

Perhaps it's best that you don't respond to me, then, if this is the kind of discussion I can expect from you.
You might have e trouble finding a Christian who understands that Allah means GOD.

you would have a difficult task ahead of you if you had to find a Christian who understands the small quite voice and fire of the heart to be the Holy Spirit.

You finding a Christian that accepts Azura Mazda as an acceptable name of GOD isn't too likely to happen.

Yet here I am. So please;do take your own advice.

Blackleaf

Quote from: popsthebuilder on November 05, 2017, 09:44:41 PM
You might have e trouble finding a Christian who understands that Allah means GOD.

Actually, the first time I heard that was from a Christian.

Quoteyou would have a difficult task ahead of you if you had to find a Christian who understands the small quite voice and fire of the heart to be the Holy Spirit.

I'm pretty sure this was common knowledge in all the churches I've been a part of.

QuoteYou finding a Christian that accepts Azura Mazda as an acceptable name of GOD isn't too likely to happen.

And they shouldn't either, because Azura is portrayed as a completely different god than the ones in the Bible. And the Bible does describe multiple gods, of completely different characteristics.
"Oh, wearisome condition of humanity,
Born under one law, to another bound;
Vainly begot, and yet forbidden vanity,
Created sick, commanded to be sound."
--Fulke Greville--

Baruch

Ahura Mazda was a Persian god who only liked one brand of Japanese car ;-)

Blackleaf - you had the advantage of not being Catholic.  Evangelicals at least believe in the Holy Spirit, if not glossolalia.  Most Christians would not say "Allah" is Arabic for G-d ... your example is the exception that proves the rule.

The cosmic conflict between Ahura Mazda and Ahriman ... is foundational for the NT view, quite different than Jehovah and his employee, Satan ... in the OT view.  Persia was very influential in Judaism and Islam ... and indirectly into Christianity as well.  But at least the Abrahamics didn't adopt "sky burial".
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Unbeliever

Quote from: Baruch on November 02, 2017, 08:12:37 PM
If suicidal depression is a philosophy ... then go be lower than Nietzsche if you can.  See ... not all thinking is philosophy, some of it is mental illness.  Consider Nietzsche ...
I've been a nihilist for decades, and I've never been in any suicidal depression, felt no existential despair, or anything even remotely resembling those. My nihilism frees me from the constant search for meaning that many people seem to be obsessed with.
God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

Mike Cl

Quote from: Unbeliever on November 06, 2017, 04:55:52 PM
I've been a nihilist for decades, and I've never been in any suicidal depression, felt no existential despair, or anything even remotely resembling those. My nihilism frees me from the constant search for meaning that many people seem to be obsessed with.
I like that website--reflects a lot of what I think.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Unbeliever

God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

Baruch

Self therapy?  You both find meaning posting here .. so I don't believe you are ... duhduhduh ... true Scotsmen or true nihilists.

If you really believed "NIHILISM IS SANITY IN AN INSANE SOCIETY" then you would be sociopaths.  Society isn't insane, except to the sociopath.  And as I recall, sociopaths don't suffer from depression either.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/201305/how-spot-sociopath

I would rather be unjustly executed by the Athenians, than be a sociopath.  But was Socrates a sociopath? ;-)
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Cavebear

Theism (broadly defined or not), there IS a clear distinction between theists and atheists.  And those who are very theistic and those who are barely theistic are still theistic.

To put in in practical terms, those who how have a full head of hair and those with thinning hair still have hair.  Think of atheists as "utterly bald" in that regard.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Baruch

Quote from: Cavebear on November 07, 2017, 02:59:05 AM
Theism (broadly defined or not), there IS a clear distinction between theists and atheists.  And those who are very theistic and those who are barely theistic are still theistic.

To put in in practical terms, those who how have a full head of hair and those with thinning hair still have hair.  Think of atheists as "utterly bald" in that regard.

Some of us are so hairy, we grow hair inward.  Ingrown furry intelligence, like you for instance ;-)
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.