Author Topic: How do Christians comprehend the iconic duo of free will and predestination?  (Read 1651 times)

Offline Baruch

I was mocking all you 200 IQ atheists .. and I am not always trying to be funny.

I am Jewish.  Jews = kosher evil.  Gentiles = evil evil.  You only think that I am to the left of Pr126 ... I am to his right ;-))

But am I afraid?  Not too much at my age.  I have seen too much, and don't want to see much more.  I blame TV.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2017, 01:00:04 PM by Baruch »
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Offline Cavebear

I was mocking all you 200 IQ atheists .. and I am not always trying to be funny.

Only 140, please...  I like to stay modest.

I am Jewish.  Jews = kosher evil.  Gentiles = evil evil.  You only think that I am to the left of Pr126 ... I am to his right ;-))

DUH!!!  The only thing that confuses some people is the that your write rather well for religio-nazi...

But am I afraid?  Not too much at my age.  I have seen too much, and don't want to see much more.  I blame TV.

You want to see and learn more, possibly to escape the sins of your youth.   Otherwise you wouldn't be here arguing with me.  LOL!

Have a good day mate...

Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!  b 1950

Offline Baruch

You want to see and learn more, possibly to escape the sins of your youth.   Otherwise you wouldn't be here arguing with me.  LOL!

Have a good day mate...

Yes, lunch is over, time to go back protecting the Freeworld from Pod People.  Also .. you had more HTML problems ... genius ;-))
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Offline Cavebear

Yes, lunch is over, time to go back protecting the Freeworld from Pod People.  Also .. you had more HTML problems ... genius ;-))

After 36 hours online, I really don't worry about it too much.  Thinking about replies is more fun than diligence.  Though correcting (and failing) to correct all my typos gets harder.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!  b 1950

Voltaire said .. “Those Who Can Make You Believe Absurdities, Can Make You Commit Atrocities”
There you go talking about Trump again🤔
not expecting god to show up, but if he does we’re going to have to beat the prick up.

Offline Cavebear

There you go talking about Trump again🤔

Trump is the master of absurdities.  You tell he is lying when his lips move.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!  b 1950

People really shouldn't post whole threads about things they are so very ignorant of.

We have freedom because anything else would be evil.

Freedom in no way contradicts destiny.


Offline Baruch

People really shouldn't post whole threads about things they are so very ignorant of.

We have freedom because anything else would be evil.

Freedom in no way contradicts destiny.

Depends on how you define pre-destination vs pre-determination.  They aren't the same.  In pre-destination (destiny) people are free, but G-d in omnipotence, knows what you will choose.  In pre-determination, G-d chooses for you ... and yes, that would be evil.

This is a problem in the development of Islam, between Mutazilites and Ash'arites.  With Mutazilites, Allah gives humans and jinn the ability to choose.  Pre-fall, even angels have the ability to choose.  Iblis chose wrongly ... because he didn't accept the Ash'arite position ;-p  In the Ash'arite position, something is good, because Allah arbitrarily chooses it, not because it is good itself.  In the Mutazilite position, something is good in itself, and because Allah is good, Allah chooses it.  The question remains, does Allah in the Mutazilite position, have free will to not choose what is good?  So if Allah, in the Ash'arite POV, choose that the prayers must be done while standing on one's head, then that is what Muslims must do, even though that would be bad from a human perspective.  ISIS is the culmination of Ash'arite theology.  For the Ash'arite ... the idea that Allah has ontology superior to Allah ... is intolerable.  Kind of like Zeus vs the Three Fates.  In Greek mythology, Zeus had to take extreme measures to avoid being toppled by his own child, having twice conceived ... by taking the embryo of Bacchus into his thigh for further development, and having swallowed the embryo of Athena.  But Athena can't be stopped, she is born from Zeus' head after a massive headache.

In the Iblis story, Allah created the angels in Heaven, and told them, "bow to nothing except me".  Then Allah created Adam ... in Heaven, and is going around showing off his new creation to the angels.  Allah says, "bow to Adam".  All the angels comply (as Ash'arites) but Iblis does not.  Iblis says, "you said before, bow to nothing except you, and you can't contradict yourself" (Iblis thinks this is a test).  This disobedience gets Iblis exiled to Earth.  Iblis is a Mutazilite.  Can you guess that Ash'arism is the majority theology in Islam?  What Allah, and Ash'arites require is blind obedience, not people who can think for themselves.  It is evil.  In rabbinic Judaism we have the opposite story, a council of rabbis, by majority vote, can trump Jehovah ... because Jehovah can't trump scripture.  Mutazilite Muslims, and rabbinic Jews allow productive free will.  In fact, in Genesis, there is no reason to think that G-d has omniscience.  Why would Jehovah call out ... "Adam and Eve, show yourselves".  Why would Jehovah ask Adam and Eve ... "What have you done?".

I accept neither pre-determinism nor pre-destinarianism.  I think you support pre-destinarianism.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2017, 11:15:52 AM by Baruch »
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People really shouldn't post whole threads about things they are so very ignorant of.

We have freedom because anything else would be evil.

Freedom in no way contradicts destiny.

How typical. The "you're not a Christian, so you don't know what you're talking about" dismissal. And also typical, instead of responding to intelligent arguments, you completely ignore them and insert your own mindless one. You believe in free will because you believe that a lack of free will is evil. You believe because you believe.

Free will is logically impossible, with or without a god, and especially with a god who is omnipotent and omniscient. In fact, a lot of things people take for granted are impossible with an omnipotent and omniscient god. Such a being would not be able to experience many human emotions, such as anger, sadness, and regret. We become angry when we are taken off guard or feel powerless. A god who knows all and can do whatever he wants would not know what anger feels like.

In addition, many verses of the Bible explicitly state that God has control over all our destinies. And yes, that does contradict freedom. He hardens hearts so that people are unable to accept his words and turn to him. We are God's playthings, according to the Bible. Before we're even born, he predestines some of us for Heaven and others for destruction (Romans 9:19-21, if you haven't read my previous post). That is exactly the kind of evil people like you created the concept of free will for, to try to make God look like less of an asshole than he is described as in his holy text.
"Birds born in a cage think flying is an illness." - Alejandro Jodorowsky

How typical. The "you're not a Christian, so you don't know what you're talking about" dismissal. And also typical, instead of responding to intelligent arguments, you completely ignore them and insert your own mindless one. You believe in free will because you believe that a lack of free will is evil. You believe because you believe.

Free will is logically impossible, with or without a god, and especially with a god who is omnipotent and omniscient. In fact, a lot of things people take for granted are impossible with an omnipotent and omniscient god. Such a being would not be able to experience many human emotions, such as anger, sadness, and regret. We become angry when we are taken off guard or feel powerless. A god who knows all and can do whatever he wants would not know what anger feels like.

In addition, many verses of the Bible explicitly state that God has control over all our destinies. And yes, that does contradict freedom. He hardens hearts so that people are unable to accept his words and turn to him. We are God's playthings, according to the Bible. Before we're even born, he predestines some of us for Heaven and others for destruction (Romans 9:19-21, if you haven't read my previous post). That is exactly the kind of evil people like you created the concept of free will for, to try to make God look like less of an asshole than he is described as in his holy text.
I said nothing of the sort.

Most Christians don't understand it, so being a "christian" is irrelevant.

Offline SGOS

How do Christians comprehend free will and predestination? 

Christians mostly comprehend them, but Christians don't comprehend the implications each one has for the other, so they can't understand their mutual exclusivity.  It's a complicated thing for them because while they claim God gives man free will, they don't come right out and  actually claim that predestination exists.  Instead, they design God with foreknowledge, which requires the existence of predestination.  However, they don't use the word predestination or talk about it, and act like foreknowledge has no relationship to predestination at all.  So the contradiction is unnoticed.

The argument then becomes:

God has foreknowledge.
God gives man freewill.

Notice this syllogism contains no deduction or therefore statement.  It's simply two mutually exclusive assertions parroted from doctrine.  It doesn't argue anything and its logical implications remain unnoticed just outside the limit of Christian comprehension.

Offline Baruch

How typical. The "you're not a Christian, so you don't know what you're talking about" dismissal. And also typical, instead of responding to intelligent arguments, you completely ignore them and insert your own mindless one. You believe in free will because you believe that a lack of free will is evil. You believe because you believe.

Free will is logically impossible, with or without a god, and especially with a god who is omnipotent and omniscient. In fact, a lot of things people take for granted are impossible with an omnipotent and omniscient god. Such a being would not be able to experience many human emotions, such as anger, sadness, and regret. We become angry when we are taken off guard or feel powerless. A god who knows all and can do whatever he wants would not know what anger feels like.

In addition, many verses of the Bible explicitly state that God has control over all our destinies. And yes, that does contradict freedom. He hardens hearts so that people are unable to accept his words and turn to him. We are God's playthings, according to the Bible. Before we're even born, he predestines some of us for Heaven and others for destruction (Romans 9:19-21, if you haven't read my previous post). That is exactly the kind of evil people like you created the concept of free will for, to try to make God look like less of an asshole than he is described as in his holy text.

My movement of my hand, is my refutation of predetermination.  I don't need to believe in anything, including free will.  Belief is weak, fact is strong.  The Bible says many things, being a discordant anthology.  But that part which encourages irresponsibility "G-d made me do it" ... is devilry.
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Offline Baruch

I said nothing of the sort.

Most Christians don't understand it, so being a "christian" is irrelevant.

All supposed affiliations are straw men.  Light a match, burn them down.
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Offline Baruch

How do Christians comprehend free will and predestination? 

Christians mostly comprehend them, but Christians don't comprehend the implications each one has for the other, so they can't understand their mutual exclusivity.  It's a complicated thing for them because while they claim God gives man free will, they don't come right out and  actually claim that predestination exists.  Instead, they design God with foreknowledge, which requires the existence of predestination.  However, they don't use the word predestination or talk about it, and act like foreknowledge has no relationship to predestination at all.  So the contradiction is unnoticed.

The argument then becomes:

God has foreknowledge.
God gives man freewill.

Notice this syllogism contains no deduction or therefore statement.  It's simply two mutually exclusive assertions parroted from doctrine.  It doesn't argue anything and its logical implications remain unnoticed just outside the limit of Christian comprehension.

Outside lay comprehension ... not of Aquinas etc.  And I don't accept the first item, but accept the second.  With Protestantism, we went from being ruled by illiterate clergy to illiterate laity.
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I said nothing of the sort.

Most Christians don't understand it, so being a "christian" is irrelevant.

Regardless, choosing to focus on the person instead of the contents of their arguments is a sure sign that someone doesn't have a leg to stand on.
"Birds born in a cage think flying is an illness." - Alejandro Jodorowsky