Author Topic: NFL & Trump  (Read 479 times)

Offline Cavebear

Re: NFL & Trump
« Reply #15 on: October 01, 2017, 11:00:58 AM »
I personally don't have a problem with it. At all. If it was ignored, the whole thing would be....ignored. But the media, blew it up and all of a sudden white people who make on average 60,000 a year are paying 100+ for a ticket get pissed that black men making millions should be protesting about anything.

And it is certainly not about the flag, that just the excuse. We have had white presidents wearing the flag inside their coat, a clear violation of the flag code, Kid Rock cut a hole in one and pranced about as it was a poncho, Nuget wore one, all against the flag code, but no whitey said a thing about that. How can kneeling be an insult anyway? How come nobody gives a shit about the camerman wandering around? Who gave them exempt status? Or the reporters? Or the people selling beer and crap? Or the stadium security walking around? Nope, just some uppity n*&^$Ws pissing off da white folk and all of a sudden, this turns into false patriot call to action.

You make a good point.  I could make an argument that entertainers can get away with what the audience expects. 

But I will surrender the argument.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!  b 1950

Offline aitm

Re: NFL & Trump
« Reply #16 on: October 01, 2017, 11:02:35 AM »
But using a paid event is wrong.  You shouldn't abuse a captive audience.

The inclusion of the anthem for a sporting event is absurd in my opinion. A blatant overture to install national pride and identity after Vietnam gave many of us a great suspicion of the government and of using the flag for nefarious reasons. Apparently, it worked. Now it is getting use to recreate a division that was hopefully a few more generations from disappearing, right back to square one.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Offline Cavebear

Re: NFL & Trump
« Reply #17 on: October 01, 2017, 11:27:36 AM »
The inclusion of the anthem for a sporting event is absurd in my opinion. A blatant overture to install national pride and identity after Vietnam gave many of us a great suspicion of the government and of using the flag for nefarious reasons. Apparently, it worked. Now it is getting use to recreate a division that was hopefully a few more generations from disappearing, right back to square one.

Not to be a nefarious nebob of negativism, but the anthem was first played at the 1918 baseball world series and because of the spontaneous response among the fans, it caught on...
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!  b 1950

Offline Mike Cl (OP)

Re: NFL & Trump
« Reply #18 on: October 01, 2017, 11:46:16 AM »
As fas as NFL players go using games to make political stements, I'm not on their side.  If you pay money to watch entertainers perform (and athletes are entertainers), that is not a free speech forum.

You can stand in the public square and state your views, you can write a letter to the newspaper, you can write a book, you can go on a talk show .  That's free speech. 

But using a paid event is wrong.  You shouldn't abuse a captive audience.
In some respect I may agree.  Except the NFL has been bought by the military and govt. for some time now.  Prior to 2009, the NFL teams stayed in the locker rooms until after the national anthem.  Then, the NFL accepted money to have the teams pay homage to the song and flag.  Paid for patriotism.  For me, that opens the NFL to all kinds of protests.  The govt and military wanted to improve enlistment rate; turning the flag into a symbol of the military was one way to do that.  I dislike the flag being a symbol of anything more than freedom; and how much more patriotic can one get than protesting?  Our country was founded in revolution and protest.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Offline Cavebear

Re: NFL & Trump
« Reply #19 on: October 01, 2017, 11:58:06 AM »
In some respect I may agree.  Except the NFL has been bought by the military and govt. for some time now.  Prior to 2009, the NFL teams stayed in the locker rooms until after the national anthem.  Then, the NFL accepted money to have the teams pay homage to the song and flag.  Paid for patriotism.  For me, that opens the NFL to all kinds of protests.  The govt and military wanted to improve enlistment rate; turning the flag into a symbol of the military was one way to do that.  I dislike the flag being a symbol of anything more than freedom; and how much more patriotic can one get than protesting?  Our country was founded in revolution and protest.
I did not know that.  I don't generally watch football, so the past practices escaped my awareness.

I have engaged in protests in my years.  But always on my own time and not with forced participants.  I support informed protest.  Just not when others are FORCED to be involved.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!  b 1950

Offline aitm

Re: NFL & Trump
« Reply #20 on: October 01, 2017, 12:09:49 PM »
At least they don't force prayer on us during the game. I mean NASCAR does but them's a bunch of red's anyway. I don't even go to high school events, don't know if they still have a prayer or not.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Offline Cavebear

Re: NFL & Trump
« Reply #21 on: October 01, 2017, 12:28:50 PM »
At least they don't force prayer on us during the game. I mean NASCAR does but them's a bunch of red's anyway. I don't even go to high school events, don't know if they still have a prayer or not.

There are a few things I've never done.  Never watched an episode of Dallas not even the famous one.  And never watched a car race.

Hmm, "few" implies at least 3.  OK, never had confetti or gatorade poured over me even when the golf team I was on went 16-0.  The only winning team my high school had that year...
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!  b 1950

Re: NFL & Trump
« Reply #22 on: October 01, 2017, 01:06:57 PM »
In some respect I may agree.  Except the NFL has been bought by the military and govt. for some time now.  Prior to 2009, the NFL teams stayed in the locker rooms until after the national anthem.  Then, the NFL accepted money to have the teams pay homage to the song and flag.  Paid for patriotism.  For me, that opens the NFL to all kinds of protests.  The govt and military wanted to improve enlistment rate; turning the flag into a symbol of the military was one way to do that.  I dislike the flag being a symbol of anything more than freedom; and how much more patriotic can one get than protesting?  Our country was founded in revolution and protest.
Not exactly true:

Quote from: politiFact
Until that year, players in primetime games would remain inside their locker rooms while the anthem was sung, due to timing concerns for the television networks. After 2009, the players in primetime games have been on the field during the anthem, McCarthy said.

But this change only affected primetime games. For all other games -- typically held at 1 p.m. or 4 p.m. Eastern -- players had already been stationed on the field for the national anthem. So the 2009 change simply applied to primetime games the rules that had already been in place for daytime games.

According to Time mag,

Quote
However, while the Times referred to the song as the national anthem, that was not technically the case yet. The song was then just an anthem for the U.S. Army and Navy, but it would prove to have legs (even if the Cubs' World Series record would not). "The outpouring of sentiment, enthusiasm, and patriotism at the 1918 World Series went a long way to making the (song) the national anthem,’’

So the song was originally an anthem for military but became the national anthem.

And finally (from Time again)

Quote from: Time
At the end of the war, after Japan announced it would surrender, NFL Commissioner Elmer Layden called for all of the league's teams to play "The Star-Spangled Banner" at their games, arguing, “The National Anthem should be as much a part of every game as the kick-off. We must not drop it simply because the war is over. We should never forget what it stands for.”

http://time.com/4955623/history-national-anthem-sports-nfl/

Offline Cavebear

Re: NFL & Trump
« Reply #23 on: October 01, 2017, 01:12:44 PM »
We generally agree about 1918...
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!  b 1950

Offline Mike Cl (OP)

Re: NFL & Trump
« Reply #24 on: October 01, 2017, 02:35:00 PM »
I did not know that.  I don't generally watch football, so the past practices escaped my awareness.

I have engaged in protests in my years.  But always on my own time and not with forced participants.  I support informed protest.  Just not when others are FORCED to be involved.
As far as I'm concerned, the playing to the anthem is forced on me.  I have never liked doing it; nor in school, either.  The NFL protest does not cost us any time or effort.  If it offends you don't look at the players.  It is about the mildest form of protest I've ever seen.  Understand, I am a huge patriot of this country.  In the scheme of things, it is a grand country with much going for it.  And as a patriot it is incumbent upon me to protest against that which I think my country is wrong about.  Protest is how this country came about and protesting has been and should be an honored way of expressing opinion.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Offline Baruch

Re: NFL & Trump
« Reply #25 on: October 01, 2017, 02:57:00 PM »
Not to be a nefarious nebob of negativism, but the anthem was first played at the 1918 baseball world series and because of the spontaneous response among the fans, it caught on...

WW I much?  Woodrow Wilson was a Nazi.  Worse than John Adams.
שלום

Offline Baruch

Re: NFL & Trump
« Reply #26 on: October 01, 2017, 02:58:33 PM »
In some respect I may agree.  Except the NFL has been bought by the military and govt. for some time now.  Prior to 2009, the NFL teams stayed in the locker rooms until after the national anthem.  Then, the NFL accepted money to have the teams pay homage to the song and flag.  Paid for patriotism.  For me, that opens the NFL to all kinds of protests.  The govt and military wanted to improve enlistment rate; turning the flag into a symbol of the military was one way to do that.  I dislike the flag being a symbol of anything more than freedom; and how much more patriotic can one get than protesting?  Our country was founded in revolution and protest.

Said by a Democrat ... got Jefferson Davis? ... got William Jefferson Clinton?  Go protest, you Leninist ;-))
שלום

Offline Baruch

Re: NFL & Trump
« Reply #27 on: October 01, 2017, 02:59:58 PM »
There are a few things I've never done.  Never watched an episode of Dallas not even the famous one.  And never watched a car race.

Hmm, "few" implies at least 3.  OK, never had confetti or gatorade poured over me even when the golf team I was on went 16-0.  The only winning team my high school had that year...

You are un-American ;-)  What spaceship marooned you here?  Are you from France?
שלום

Offline Baruch

Re: NFL & Trump
« Reply #28 on: October 01, 2017, 03:01:25 PM »
As far as I'm concerned, the playing to the anthem is forced on me.  I have never liked doing it; nor in school, either.  The NFL protest does not cost us any time or effort.  If it offends you don't look at the players.  It is about the mildest form of protest I've ever seen.  Understand, I am a huge patriot of this country.  In the scheme of things, it is a grand country with much going for it.  And as a patriot it is incumbent upon me to protest against that which I think my country is wrong about.  Protest is how this country came about and protesting has been and should be an honored way of expressing opinion.

See, see ... as a Democrat you should prefer "Dixie" ... just without the slaves, you liberal Rebel you ;-)
שלום

Offline Cavebear

Re: NFL & Trump
« Reply #29 on: October 04, 2017, 04:09:49 AM »
See, see ... as a Democrat you should prefer "Dixie" ... just without the slaves, you liberal Rebel you ;-)

Your snark should be embarrassing to you.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!  b 1950