Author Topic: Where should I stand on religion?  (Read 445 times)

Offline St Truth (OP)

Where should I stand on religion?
« on: September 29, 2017, 01:23:44 PM »
I have been searching for the truth all my life. I started out life believing in what the church taught me. As I aged, I became wiser. I have reached a stage in my life when I find myself intolerant of dumbness and evasiveness and of course, I am impatient with the religious because they score high on both dumbness and evasiveness. I have gone along with and tolerated the imbeciles in church all my life. I particularly dislike the old women who love to pat me on my head and say that God will bless me for serving as an altar boy and they actually believe it. Don't they realise I'm old enough to father their granddaughter's children?

By mid December, I will reach a new milestone in my life. I'll hit the age of majority in Scotland although less enlightened countries such as England, Wales, and the US recognise an older age. Where shall I stand vis-a-vis religion?

That religion or theism is dumb is indisputable. I have challenged theists in Christian Forums and here to state their case but they have all failed miserably. I'm satisfied in my mind that theism is about the dumbest thing anyone can believe in. But my entire culture is built around the nonsense of theism.

I have to give a name for myself. To identify myself as a theist would be unbearably humiliating. Come on, I'm too intelligent to believe in theism. But Christianity is theistic. I have long called myself an Honest Christian. An Honest Christian is one who KNOWS that his culture / religion is old and contains fables and legends which are of course unreal. God and his merry angels are nonsense.

But when people hear that I'm an Honest Christian, they will still think I believe in all or some of the supernatural claptrap. 'Cultural Christian' sounds a little weak. I need something more than that.

After thinking long and hard, I have decided that come my birthday, I will openly declare that I am now a 'Cultural Christian and an Intellectual Atheist'. I am a Christian by my culture but an atheist intellectually. My head is entirely atheistic but my heart and other wimpish parts of my body go along with the religion. When asked, 'St Truth, do you believe in God?' my reply will be, 'Am I a nincompoop? Assuredly not! Any sane person must know that it (or whatever pronoun you choose to use to refer to that non-existent non-being' does not exist.

I'm sick and tired of the theist's evasiveness, prevarication and ambiguity. They have been given too much respect when none is due to the disseminator of nonsense. If the purveyor of falsehood (ie theist) wants to cross swords with St Truth, he should do it in clear terms or forever hang his head down in shame. The Bible tells us that there was a time when lepers were compelled to cover their upper lip and shout 'UNCLEAN' when they see other people. Perhaps it is appropriate for a theist to cover his upper lip and shout 'IMBECILE'!

The world extends too much courtesy to theists and this must stop. Irrational people must be told they are irrational. In most forums, I have noticed that these irrational folks are given special courtesy because we have all been brought up not to tell a theist that his belief is garbage. It's considered rude. But it's not thought of as rude for dumb theists to run down atheism. This imbalance of giving the licence to be rude to a bunch of idiots and intelligent atheists have to bear the brunt of their rudeness must be addressed and corrected. I believe theists should have the freedom to believe in nonsense if they want to. It's a free world. But there should be a law that requires them to at least confess that their belief is irrational and foolish.

It's particularly tough on me because I am not just a communicant Christian but an altar boy too. It's a pity I can't wear a sign on my cassock that says 'I don't believe in supernatural nonsense'.

These are hard truths that the world must acknowledge. We must forget courtesy for once and state the truth firmly and unflinchingly. I do it always for I am...

St Truth

Offline Baruch

Re: Where should I stand on religion?
« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2017, 01:26:56 PM »
Quite possible that this intention won't create a stir in your present choice of church.  Watching a young person grow into an adult is ... wonderful.
שלום

Offline aitm

Re: Where should I stand on religion?
« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2017, 01:54:41 PM »
I tell people I am an, existentialistic atheistical skeptic....kinda glazes over their eyes and they wander away..
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Re: Where should I stand on religion?
« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2017, 01:59:07 PM »
I avoid the subject of religion altogether with people in meat-space. It's nobody's business what I do or don't believe, and I never ask them what they do or don't believe, because as long as they aren't doing evil stuff they can have their beliefs.
God Not Found
"And God promised men that good and obedient wives would be found in all corners of the world... then He made the earth round...and laughed and laughed and laughed...."
unknown

Re: Where should I stand on religion?
« Reply #4 on: September 29, 2017, 02:10:29 PM »
St. Truth, I feel I should warn you about discussing your views on religion with others - it may become dangerous for your health. Even if it's not detrimental to your physical safety, in could lead to you being ostracized by your community, or some such.

Only you can choose how much of your views to share, though, so good luck with it.
God Not Found
"And God promised men that good and obedient wives would be found in all corners of the world... then He made the earth round...and laughed and laughed and laughed...."
unknown

Offline St Truth (OP)

Re: Where should I stand on religion?
« Reply #5 on: September 29, 2017, 08:34:44 PM »
Quite possible that this intention won't create a stir in your present choice of church.  Watching a young person grow into an adult is ... wonderful.

'Adult' is an arbitrary term. The only difference between a full-grown adult and me is the physical aspect. I'm still growing and so my appearance is lanky whereas the typical adult (especially the older variety) looks like a captive balloon about to take off. But as far as the mind goes, what I am at 15 is no different from what I will be at 50.

Offline St Truth (OP)

Re: Where should I stand on religion?
« Reply #6 on: September 29, 2017, 08:46:02 PM »
St. Truth, I feel I should warn you about discussing your views on religion with others - it may become dangerous for your health. Even if it's not detrimental to your physical safety, in could lead to you being ostracized by your community, or some such.

Only you can choose how much of your views to share, though, so good luck with it.

Thanks but what you say is only relevant if I lived in America. America is a strange country. The brightest people live next to the dumb fools. The greatest astrophysicists are Americans and the most loony God-believers are also Americans. Dawkins says you can't get voted if you're an atheist in America. You've got to be as stupid as Trump.

But in my country, it's ok to be an atheists. In the US, presidents have to pretend to pray and go to church even if they are atheists. In the UK, if you pray, people will think you're mad. I read an article about Tony Blair, a former PM. When he met a loony US President, they prayed together. The loony US President of course publicised it because it would gain him brownie points as a praying President in loony America. But when the British press asked Blair if he really prayed with the President, Blair denied it. That's because the wise British public would think you're a nutter if you prayed as a PM. We are different. We do a lot of things in Church. Even our monarch is crowned in Westminster Abbey and vows to uphold the Church of England as its secular head. But it's a disgrace for the PM if he really prays as opposed to doing ceremonial prayers.

As an altar boy, I am very much into anything ceremonial and ritualistic. But you'd be mad to think that I pray when I'm not doing my altar duties in church. Even during prayers, my head is bowed and my hands clasped as is required of an acolyte but my mind is on other things.

I openly tell everyone about my beliefs. It's OK in sane UK but in the US the loonies will ostracise you, as you rightly pointed out. Not so in the UK or anywhere in Europe. In fact if you REALLY believe sky daddy exists, people are a little suspicious of you. They may doubt your stability and sanity. I certainly do.

Offline Baruch

Re: Where should I stand on religion?
« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2017, 08:50:57 PM »
"but my mind is on other things." ... teenagers usually do.  And are certain of what they think is what and who is who ;-)
שלום

Re: Where should I stand on religion?
« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2017, 09:02:39 PM »
'Adult' is an arbitrary term. The only difference between a full-grown adult and me is the physical aspect. I'm still growing and so my appearance is lanky whereas the typical adult (especially the older variety) looks like a captive balloon about to take off. But as far as the mind goes, what I am at 15 is no different from what I will be at 50.
Really?  I somehow don't think you really mean that.  Are you suggesting that the mind you have now will crystallize and stay the same? You will have no new thoughts in 35 years?  No new emotions?  You have seen all and done all in your 15 yrs?  Do you think the world will stay as it is now?  Do you think the world of 2050 will be as it is now? 

One lesson I'm always learning--never say 'never', 'ever' or 'always'.  You just never know what the world is going to visit your life with; or whom. 
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Offline St Truth (OP)

Re: Where should I stand on religion?
« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2017, 11:03:52 PM »
Really?  I somehow don't think you really mean that.  Are you suggesting that the mind you have now will crystallize and stay the same? You will have no new thoughts in 35 years?  No new emotions?  You have seen all and done all in your 15 yrs?  Do you think the world will stay as it is now?  Do you think the world of 2050 will be as it is now? 

One lesson I'm always learning--never say 'never', 'ever' or 'always'.  You just never know what the world is going to visit your life with; or whom.

Of course I will have new input from external stimuli. But what I mean is my brain has reached its full potential. I don't think a 50-year-old is more logical than a 15-year-old. I mean if the theists here (or worse, in CF) are anything to go by and I'm assuming they're all older than me, I think I have done very well.

Re: Where should I stand on religion?
« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2017, 11:14:25 PM »
Of course I will have new input from external stimuli. But what I mean is my brain has reached its full potential. I don't think a 50-year-old is more logical than a 15-year-old. I mean if the theists here (or worse, in CF) are anything to go by and I'm assuming they're all older than me, I think I have done very well.
Done very well???  Don't be so modest.  You have done much better than 'very well'!  I was not saying that your brain will grow in size or weight; yes, it's fully grown.  That is not what I was referring to--at least, I wasn't trying to refer to that.  But you will have double the experiences by 50 than you have had so far.  You will have learned more; experienced more.  Because of that you will have new knowledge and new emotional experiences--some of which you have not had yet.  Will all than not produce new or different linkages within your brain?  At the very least you will be more nuanced in your world view than you are now.  You will change and change in ways you cannot anticipate.  This is not a bad thing or odd thing--it is a human thing.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Re: Where should I stand on religion?
« Reply #11 on: September 29, 2017, 11:56:20 PM »
Irrational people must be told they are irrational. In most forums, I have noticed that these irrational folks are given special courtesy because we have all been brought up not to tell a theist that his belief is garbage. It's considered rude.
I agree.  And these same points were also brought up by Sam Harris in his idea of "conversational intolerance" and Daniel Dennett in his book Breaking The Spell.  I strongly recommend reading what they had to say on this topic if you're so inclined.

Offline St Truth (OP)

Re: Where should I stand on religion?
« Reply #12 on: September 30, 2017, 10:44:07 AM »
Done very well???  Don't be so modest.  You have done much better than 'very well'!  I was not saying that your brain will grow in size or weight; yes, it's fully grown.  That is not what I was referring to--at least, I wasn't trying to refer to that.  But you will have double the experiences by 50 than you have had so far.  You will have learned more; experienced more.  Because of that you will have new knowledge and new emotional experiences--some of which you have not had yet.  Will all than not produce new or different linkages within your brain?  At the very least you will be more nuanced in your world view than you are now.  You will change and change in ways you cannot anticipate.  This is not a bad thing or odd thing--it is a human thing.

Thanks. You are very kind. I'm not sure what experiences will do to aid my thinking. But one thing is sure. I will have read many more books by the time I'm 50. Reading really helps a lot.  I was warned off Dawkins' God Delusion when I was a little 5-year-old altar boy. At that time, I had no desire to read a book of that genre. I was still reading children's books. But I first read the book when I was 8 and it changed my world quite a bit. It made me realise that I had ALWAYS supposed God's existence as a default and it was so wrong. The other really good author in my formative was Bart Ehrman. He's a brilliant Bible scholar and an honest one.

I must have seen hundreds of debates between atheists and theists. The only times when a theist appears to have won is when trickery is employed. I soon learnt all the tricks of the religious mind. So now, when a theist employs one of his many tricks, I'm on my guard and I can expose his dishonesty. William Lane Craig is the world's most dishonest debater. I can refute every single one of his arguments without much effort.

But you can't blame a theist. When you want to accept a belief system that only morons can accept, your ego is sure to take a beating. Like a drowning man, a theist has to clutch at straws. The tricks of theism help somewhat especially when a theist is arguing with a kindhearted unsuspecting atheist.

I consider it my duty to expose all the lies and errors of theism. Theists are fervent in their insanity and they can selflessly spread their lies to as many people as they can. Lies and errors belong to the dark force and must be countered by truth and light which is what I hope to spread as....

St Truth

Offline Baruch

Re: Where should I stand on religion?
« Reply #13 on: September 30, 2017, 11:08:58 AM »
Not all atheists aren anti-theists.  If you are an anti-theist, expect to have few friends ;-(  I know it is hard to be tolerant of other human beings, nor not be self-hating (you seem to have reacted with a superiority complex instead of an inferiority complex).  Being anti-X usually is a symptom of a larger problem, being anti-social.  I hope you are able to have friends, though I would agree with some here, it is best to keep your anti-theism to yourself when around them.
שלום

Re: Where should I stand on religion?
« Reply #14 on: September 30, 2017, 11:30:14 AM »
Thanks. You are very kind. I'm not sure what experiences will do to aid my thinking. But one thing is sure. I will have read many more books by the time I'm 50. Reading really helps a lot.  I was warned off Dawkins' God Delusion when I was a little 5-year-old altar boy. At that time, I had no desire to read a book of that genre. I was still reading children's books. But I first read the book when I was 8 and it changed my world quite a bit. It made me realise that I had ALWAYS supposed God's existence as a default and it was so wrong. The other really good author in my formative was Bart Ehrman. He's a brilliant Bible scholar and an honest one.

I must have seen hundreds of debates between atheists and theists. The only times when a theist appears to have won is when trickery is employed. I soon learnt all the tricks of the religious mind. So now, when a theist employs one of his many tricks, I'm on my guard and I can expose his dishonesty. William Lane Craig is the world's most dishonest debater. I can refute every single one of his arguments without much effort.

But you can't blame a theist. When you want to accept a belief system that only morons can accept, your ego is sure to take a beating. Like a drowning man, a theist has to clutch at straws. The tricks of theism help somewhat especially when a theist is arguing with a kindhearted unsuspecting atheist.

I consider it my duty to expose all the lies and errors of theism. Theists are fervent in their insanity and they can selflessly spread their lies to as many people as they can. Lies and errors belong to the dark force and must be countered by truth and light which is what I hope to spread as....

St Truth
I wish you luck and success in your quest.  I oppose organized religion much more than individual theists.  The hierarchy of any religion is where the evil comes from, for the most part. 
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?