Author Topic: SCANDAL!!! Jesus and the Naked Young Man  (Read 327 times)

Offline St Truth (OP)

SCANDAL!!! Jesus and the Naked Young Man
« on: September 28, 2017, 12:04:25 PM »
If you have not heard the religious scandal of the century, google 'Morton Smith and Clement's Letter on the Secret Gospel of Mark' and I'm sure you will be spellbound for the next ten minutes or so as you read wikipedia on the subject. What is your view on the subject? Is Clement's letter a hoax?

I wrote to Robert Price, the renowned scholar who disputes the historicity of Jesus. Price was one of the scholars who slammed Smith for forgery. Price very kindly replied (that's the good thing about the internet - you can conceal your appearance and age) and he said it was most definitely a hoax. But he added that he wished it were true.

I'm now reading Morton Smith's book about how he found the letter and what he did after that and all the scholarly studies on the document. I used to think it was a hoax. Bart Ehrman thinks it's a hoax. But now, I'm not so sure.

Morton Smith does not seem to suggest (I haven't completed my reading of his book yet) that Jesus was having a homosexual intercourse with the naked young man. He thinks it was a secret initiation into some cultic esoteric knowledge that may have Gnostic implications.

I have always thought Smith found a letter slipped between the pages of an ancient volume in the library of the monastery of Mar Saba. But I was mistaken. The letter was transcribed by an 18th century monk on the book itself. It was written in 18th century calligraphy and has been verified by handwriting experts. If it were a separate letter slipped between the pages of the 18th century volume, I can understand it to be a hoax. But how could Prof Smith forge an 18th century calligraphic writing if people are suggesting that he wrote it while in the library under supervision of a Greek Orthodox monk who kept watch over the precious books of the library?

I find all this fascinating. The human Jesus is more fun and scandal-filled than a divine Jesus created by our fertile imagination.

Offline Cavebear

Re: SCANDAL!!! Jesus and the Naked Young Man
« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2017, 12:34:45 PM »
If you have not heard the religious scandal of the century, google 'Morton Smith and Clement's Letter on the Secret Gospel of Mark' and I'm sure you will be spellbound for the next ten minutes or so as you read wikipedia on the subject. What is your view on the subject? Is Clement's letter a hoax?

I wrote to Robert Price, the renowned scholar who disputes the historicity of Jesus. Price was one of the scholars who slammed Smith for forgery. Price very kindly replied (that's the good thing about the internet - you can conceal your appearance and age) and he said it was most definitely a hoax. But he added that he wished it were true.

I'm now reading Morton Smith's book about how he found the letter and what he did after that and all the scholarly studies on the document. I used to think it was a hoax. Bart Ehrman thinks it's a hoax. But now, I'm not so sure.

Morton Smith does not seem to suggest (I haven't completed my reading of his book yet) that Jesus was having a homosexual intercourse with the naked young man. He thinks it was a secret initiation into some cultic esoteric knowledge that may have Gnostic implications.

I have always thought Smith found a letter slipped between the pages of an ancient volume in the library of the monastery of Mar Saba. But I was mistaken. The letter was transcribed by an 18th century monk on the book itself. It was written in 18th century calligraphy and has been verified by handwriting experts. If it were a separate letter slipped between the pages of the 18th century volume, I can understand it to be a hoax. But how could Prof Smith forge an 18th century calligraphic writing if people are suggesting that he wrote it while in the library under supervision of a Greek Orthodox monk who kept watch over the precious books of the library?

I find all this fascinating. The human Jesus is more fun and scandal-filled than a divine Jesus created by our fertile imagination.

Publicly, I wish you only the the best in your search for THE TRUTH.  It can be a long and arduous journey full of high points a disappointments.

Privately, I am LMAO!  I would love to talk to you in 10 years and see how you have changed.  But that is unlikely to happen.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!  b 1950

Offline Baruch

Re: SCANDAL!!! Jesus and the Naked Young Man
« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2017, 12:57:02 PM »
Yes, The Truth should be even more interesting in the future.  Will he then go by ... The Future Of The Truth?

PS - yes, there is that clue, about the young man, that would indicate that there was some kind of gnostic greek gay thing going on.  These stories were originally by Hellenized Jews, who would not be scandalized by gay pedophilia.  But when it was edited into non-Greek cultures, the physical gnosticism had to be bowderlized.
שלום

Offline St Truth (OP)

Re: SCANDAL!!! Jesus and the Naked Young Man
« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2017, 01:02:07 PM »
Yes, The Truth should be even more interesting in the future.  Will he then go by ... The Future Of The Truth?

PS - yes, there is that clue, about the young man, that would indicate that there was some kind of gnostic greek gay thing going on.  These stories were originally by Hellenized Jews, who would not be scandalized by gay pedophilia.  But when it was edited into non-Greek cultures, the physical gnosticism had to be bowderlized.

Jews think nothing of gay paedophilia? Remind me not to take off my clothes within sight of you. LOL.

Offline St Truth (OP)

Re: SCANDAL!!! Jesus and the Naked Young Man
« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2017, 01:03:29 PM »
Publicly, I wish you only the the best in your search for THE TRUTH.  It can be a long and arduous journey full of high points a disappointments.

Privately, I am LMAO!  I would love to talk to you in 10 years and see how you have changed.  But that is unlikely to happen.

You won't be in AF in 10 years' time?

Offline Baruch

Re: SCANDAL!!! Jesus and the Naked Young Man
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2017, 01:08:21 PM »
Jews think nothing of gay paedophilia? Remind me not to take off my clothes within sight of you. LOL.

Non-Hellenistic Jews would stone gay Jews, and tell the Greek gentiles to get a room.
שלום

Offline Baruch

Re: SCANDAL!!! Jesus and the Naked Young Man
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2017, 01:09:00 PM »
You won't be in AF in 10 years' time?

Many people here are old men ... some even older than I am.
שלום

Offline Cavebear

Re: SCANDAL!!! Jesus and the Naked Young Man
« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2017, 01:15:52 PM »
You won't be in AF in 10 years' time?

I doubt any of us here now will be.  There will be a whole new crop.  We'll all have implanted brain chips or something.  Well, not me.  I'll be catching up to smart phones, LOL!
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!  b 1950

Offline St Truth (OP)

Re: SCANDAL!!! Jesus and the Naked Young Man
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2017, 01:17:01 PM »
Many people here are old men ... some even older than I am.

Are you implying that Cavebear may shuffle off this mortal coil in just 10 years from now? Even if I'm really old, I won't be so pessimistic.

Offline Cavebear

Re: SCANDAL!!! Jesus and the Naked Young Man
« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2017, 01:22:27 PM »
Are you implying that Cavebear may shuffle off this mortal coil in just 10 years from now? Even if I'm really old, I won't be so pessimistic.

Assuming no surprise encounters with a truck, family history gives me into the 90s...  I'm retired with an inflation-adjusted annuity and I plan to milk every dime of it...  As they say, "The guy who dies with the most toys wins".
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!  b 1950

Re: SCANDAL!!! Jesus and the Naked Young Man
« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2017, 01:36:44 PM »
As they say, "The guy who dies with the most toys wins".
And the prize is oblivion, just like the rest of us will get.
God Not Found
“Money supplants skill; it's possession allows us to become happily stupid.”
Bill McKibben, The Age of Missing Information

Offline Cavebear

Re: SCANDAL!!! Jesus and the Naked Young Man
« Reply #11 on: September 28, 2017, 01:38:40 PM »
And the prize is oblivion, just like the rest of us will get.

No argument there.  Dead is dead.  But if you enjoyed what you had on the way out, good...  ;)
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!  b 1950

Re: SCANDAL!!! Jesus and the Naked Young Man
« Reply #12 on: September 29, 2017, 12:43:00 AM »
exactly how many toys does Cavebear have? (no doubt you are way ahead of me)


So what is the name of the naked guy? Hercules? Moses?
not expecting god to show up, but if he does we’re going to have to beat the prick up.

Offline St Truth (OP)

Re: SCANDAL!!! Jesus and the Naked Young Man
« Reply #13 on: September 29, 2017, 04:09:07 AM »
exactly how many toys does Cavebear have? (no doubt you are way ahead of me)


So what is the name of the naked guy? Hercules? Moses?

He is unnamed. He is the same mysterious naked young man mentioned in Mk 14:51-52. The problem with Mark's gospel is there are obviously parts that have been removed. Scholars have recognised this for a long time.

Offline Baruch

Re: SCANDAL!!! Jesus and the Naked Young Man
« Reply #14 on: September 29, 2017, 06:50:12 AM »
He is unnamed. He is the same mysterious naked young man mentioned in Mk 14:51-52. The problem with Mark's gospel is there are obviously parts that have been removed. Scholars have recognised this for a long time.

The Gospels were produced by Hellenistic Jewish men, probably high on ganja.  Drug use was common in all historical periods.  Scrying in a dark fluid filled bowl may also have been involved, if you believe the testimony of Nostradamus, that he used "Jewish" methods for his "sight" seeing.  The editing question is trivial.  There is no infallibility or inerrancy here ... or anywhere.  The Quran doesn't exist as an eternal object in Heaven as claimed by Muslim theologians.  Traditionally, Arab boys scry using the reflections of their finger nails.  The Apostle Paul was clearly an unbalanced personality, and much of what is ascribed to him, came from others.  And Paul's genuine letters were also edited.  The Gospel of Mary, though fragmentary, reveals how this stuff actually came about ... thru a seance of disciples contacting a "disembodied" Christ.  Gnostic LARPing, not historical encounters with a risen god.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2017, 06:51:52 AM by Baruch »
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