Just got banned from Christian Forums

[St Truth]

But why would it matter?  Are you in self doubt?  What purpose would an answer serve for you ... particularly if you framed the axioms and method of deduction ... you are just begging for self affirmation.  When you have more self confidence, you won't need anyone's affirmation.  And if I were your grandpa, I would be very proud of your growing up, and support you, for being you, not for what you believe.

No, my grandpa doesn't mind that I don't believe in God. He just thinks it's rude to discuss religion. People in my country are very different from American Christians. They don't mind if you don't believe. Their own beliefs aren't usually the sort that the average American Christian would even accept as remotely Christian.

No, I do not have any doubt in my mind that God probably doesn't exist. If at all a God exists, he's most likely a mere creative force that caused the Big Bang. He's not a conscious being with love and all that rubbish. At most I'm willing to concede the existence of a Deist God who caused the Big Bang and he goes into hibernation and has remained in a deep sleep ever since. But a Christian God who is vested with the two totally conflicting properties or attributes: omnipotence and love cannot possibly exist. There is no chance in hell (if you will pardon my French) such a God can possibly exist.

[Mike Cl]

I cannot accept that. We must be very careful when we ascribe 'truth' to an imaginary being because religionists are desperate people and they will seize your words and insist that you have admitted that God is real. That's my experience in CF. There is no truth or falsehood issued from God unless we can first establish the fact that God exists.

You cannot control what another thinks or feels.  It matters little how you phrase a statement about god--the reader will believe what they want. 

The point I was trying to make is that the word 'truth' already comes packed with a link to god.  In the minds of theists, truth-god; god-truth are almost one in the same.  Saying you are St. Truth to a theist is almost admitting you know god exists but you are simply refusing to acknowledge that.  Using 'fact' and not 'truth' strips that link.  Ask a theist to produce a fact about god and they will not be able to do so.  Ask a theist to produce a truth about god and they will go on forever. 

So, when you say: "There is no truth or falsehood issued from God unless we can first establish the fact that God exists.", you and I agree that that is a fact!

[Baruch]

I cannot accept that. We must be very careful when we ascribe 'truth' to an imaginary being because religionists are desperate people and they will seize your words and insist that you have admitted that God is real. That's my experience in CF. There is no truth or falsehood issued from God unless we can first establish the fact that God exists.

The religion model used by most people, and most people at CF, is fallacious.  You detect this, but don't yet know what to do about it.  Others have detected this, and developed a way of coping with life outside of religion.  A few were never part of any religion.  The POV of CF isn't tradition, which is where you are coming from.  They make bad epistemology, and worse metaphysics ... because they are just apes (can't we all get along?).  Just because a few outstanding thinkers have done something .. says nothing about the average person.  That is like saying because someone ran a 4 minute mile, that we are all fast runners.  Studying the invention or idea of another person, after it exists, is nothing compared to having come up with it in the first place, usually against self doubts and opposition from group think.

[Baruch]

No, my grandpa doesn't mind that I don't believe in God. He just thinks it's rude to discuss religion. People in my country are very different from American Christians. They don't mind if you don't believe. Their own beliefs aren't usually the sort that the average American Christian would even accept as remotely Christian.

No, I do not have any doubt in my mind that God probably doesn't exist. If at all a God exists, he's most likely a mere creative force that caused the Big Bang. He's not a conscious being with love and all that rubbish. At most I'm willing to concede the existence of a Deist God who caused the Big Bang and he goes into hibernation and has remained in a deep sleep ever since. But a Christian God who is vested with the two totally conflicting properties or attributes: omnipotence and love cannot possibly exist. There is no chance in hell (if you will pardon my French) such a God can possibly exist.

Deism is an interesting POV.  I am a pan-en-theist myself.  That is a pan-theist with transcendence in addition to immanence.  Yes, the literal god of Christianity doesn't exist.  No literal god does.  They are mythologies, even the Abrahamic religions, not just the ancient Greek.  But that begs the question, what are all these humans going on about?

Traditionally, in polite society, we were taught to never discuss sex, politics or religion; not with your parents, not with your siblings or spouse, and certainly not with your children ;-)  But we are well past the Victorian age.  The Victorians had a lot of false bravado, for all their self doubt (avoidance of skepticism because of fear of what you might discover).

[SGOS]

I cannot accept that. We must be very careful when we ascribe 'truth' to an imaginary being because religionists are desperate people and they will seize your words and insist that you have admitted that God is real. That's my experience in CF. There is no truth or falsehood issued from God unless we can first establish the fact that God exists.

This is the fundamental question.  As a Christian, I searched for the proof.  I was somewhat like you for a long time.  I didn't believe in God, but I claimed to be a Christian.  There are some logical problems with that, which would seem to be obvious.  Unlike you, I found no satisfaction in going to church.  I was bored and had no reasons to attend.  I felt no real commitment, although I lit the candles on Sunday for a while.  You seem to have strong attachments to church.  I'm not sure what they are, but I can accept that.  In the US, a few atheists attend the Unitarian Church, which welcomes atheists and makes no demands that they convert.  In quite a non-confrontational discussion in a forum where the question, "Why, would an atheist attend the Unitarian Church," was discussed, someone queried further, "For the bake sales?"  I'll never forget that comment.  I nearly spewed my coffee all over my monitor.  I did give some thought to attending, myself, but never got the necessary interest to bother.

For me, all theistic claims, demands, or exhortations were meaningless unless the fundamental question of a god's existence was settled, something which I could not do.  You appear to be trying to answer the question, and whatever you finally come up with, I agree that it is question of utmost importance.  Everything in theism rides on it.  I believe the question cannot be found in logic, and personal experiences of theists that claim they have personally experienced a god, are too easily explained by chemical reactions in the body.  So the question remains unanswered (for me).

I don't question it anymore.  I think the question is irrelevant.  The world goes on exactly as I would expect in a world without a god.

[Hydra009]

For me, all theistic claims, demands, or exhortations were meaningless unless the fundamental question of a god's existence was settled, something which I could not do.  You appear to be trying to answer the question, and whatever you finally come up with, I agree that it is question of utmost importance.  Everything in theism rides on it.  I believe the question cannot be found in logic, and personal experiences of theists that claim they have personally experienced a god, are too easily explained by chemical reactions in the body.  So the question remains unanswered (for me).

For me, all it'd take is a simple demonstration of said God: introduce him to everyone, let me have a nice firm handshake and a good ol' Doubting Thomas poke and I'm won over.  Simple.

Instead, what I get are arguments and word games.  "There has to be a God because X" or "this passage predicted 9/11" or "Atheists can't explain X".  Sophistry and worse.  And I have to be content with that or else.

The fact that theists have to rely on these arguments at all is an indicator that it's not real.  You don't have to threaten people into believing that 2+2=4 or that the world is round - it's manifestly true and you can demonstrate it to even the most skeptical person if you're patient enough to do so.  The fact that theists can't operate in an open and honest way is pretty damning.

[SGOS]

For me, all it'd take is a simple demonstration of said God: introduce him to everyone, let me have a nice firm handshake and a good ol' Doubting Thomas poke and I'm won over.  Simple.

Instead, what I get are arguments and word games.  "There has to be a God because X" or "this passage predicted 9/11" or "Atheists can't explain X".  Sophistry and worse.  And I have to be content with that or else.

The fact that theists have to rely on these arguments at all is an indicator that it's not real.  You don't have to threaten people into believing that 2+2=4 or that the world is round - it's manifestly true and you can demonstrate it to even the most skeptical person if you're patient enough to do so.  The fact that theists can't operate in an open and honest way is pretty damning.

Ouch!

Yes a simple demonstration would answer the fundamental question.  That would be a place to START, and then knowing there is a god, we could begin to find out what things the Bible got wrong.  I would hope that after his initial appearance, he would hang around for a while and aid us in cleaning up the assortment of religious descriptions that claim to have the real dope on him.  I've always speculated that if a real god could be identified, his purpose would surprise everyone who is heavily invested in their version of what he is and what he wants.  Somehow there is this mountain of lore that theists have passed on each according to their own culture, and all of it without any evidence that he's out there doing whatever.  This is all done by skipping the critical knowledge and getting on with building him the way we think he should be, and then propping it up with words, threats, promises, and occasional bouts of ethnic cleansing.

[Unbeliever]

I've wondered about all those people who say they're doing "God's Will." How do they know what God's will is? Do they get it from the Bible? Do they hear God's voice telling them His will? Do they just do what they want and merely claim it's God's will so they can justify it?

The latter seems the more likely, to me.

[Baruch]

I've wondered about all those people who say they're doing "God's Will." How do they know what God's will is? Do they get it from the Bible? Do they hear God's voice telling them His will? Do they just do what they want and merely claim it's God's will so they can justify it?

The latter seems the more likely, to me.

If one has a strong feeling about what one is doing ... yes it is common to claim G-d support.  If you are a theist, wouldn't you do that?  Would the epistemology really matter?  Leave the geeks in the ivory tower, they are mostly harmless, and useless.

[SGOS]

If one has a strong feeling about what one is doing ... yes it is common to claim G-d support.  If you are a theist, wouldn't you do that?  Would the epistemology really matter?  Leave the geeks in the ivory tower, they are mostly harmless, and useless.

I recall, George W claiming he prayed to God for direction when he was supposedly "agonizing" over whether to invade Iraq, and wouldn't you know it, God told George to go ahead and do what he wanted to do.  I'm not sure that really happened.  We will just have to take George's word on that.

[Baruch]

I recall, George W claiming he prayed to God for direction when he was supposedly "agonizing" over whether to invade Iraq, and wouldn't you know it, God told George to go ahead and do what he wanted to do.  I'm not sure that really happened.  We will just have to take George's word on that.

George W is an idiot, as you well know.  I wouldn't go to him for any advice, particularly religious advice.  He got it backward ... if you go to war, and you win, then G-d wanted you to do it, because G-d made it possible for you to win, because G-d backs winners and those G-d supports can't be defeated.  This was American logic after 1945 ... that we are G-d's chosen (we borrowed it from the OT).  It has to do with particular superstitions about the past.

The past can't be changed, so it represents G-d's true judgement.  I don't agree with that, but that is the theology.  In fact the US has lost in Afghanistan and Iraq, in fact lost everywhere since 1945.  Our starting wars is highly stupid, given our poor track record.  Clearly in that old theology, G-d doesn't support the US, so no, G-d wouldn't tell George W to invade Iraq.  In pagan theology, Zeus is known for sending false dreams to stir up trouble among humans.  Americans are pagans in Christian clothing.

[Cavebear]

Christian forums are nothing more than mentally self-masturbatory communities. 

OP: "I believe in God."

Thread responses:
"Yes!"
"Yes!"
"Yes!"
"Yes!"
"Yes!"
"Yes!"
"Yes!"
"Yes!"
"Yes!"

Yep, that how they go.  You ask them WHY they believe and the question baffles them.  "Because God is All" is the usual reply.  Do these people ever actually THINK?

[Baruch]

Yep, that how they go.  You ask them WHY they believe and the question baffles them.  "Because God is All" is the usual reply.  Do these people ever actually THINK?

Apes don't think.  Even before they post on Atheistforums.com.

[AllPurposeAtheist]

If your claim to fame is that you were banned by CF you have a lot left to live and Pepsi has a lot to give..something like that. I don't see martyrdom in your future.

[Cavebear]

If your claim to fame is that you were banned by CF you have a lot left to live and Pepsi has a lot to give..something like that. I don't see martyrdom in your future.

Well, maybe aqua.