Just got banned from Christian Forums

[Baruch]

This notoriety of the RC priests has spread far and wide. It's common for us to tease our RC friends who are altar boys that we are safe from predators but we can't say the same for them. Even here in this country where Christians are a small minority, I was once having dinner with a priest when diners at the tables around us kept staring at us. We felt quite embarrassed and I suggested to him that he might want to stand up and declare to all the others that he wasn't RC. Haha. Even the people here know.

That and clergy were frequently agents of colonialism.  That might be part of the dis-attraction.  My ex-wife, who was clergy ... I was grateful that her church didn't make her wear clerical garb outside of the pulpit.

FYI about my avatar, and indirectly about me ... the first modern Jew:
https://lareviewofbooks.org/article/the-graphic-spinoza/#!

[Sorginak]

FYI about my avatar, and indirectly about me ... the first modern Jew:
https://lareviewofbooks.org/article/the-graphic-spinoza/#!

was excommunicated from the Portuguese-Jewish community of Amsterdam in 1656, when he was still a young man. He would go on to become the most radical and controversial thinker of his time.

Sounds like you.

In his treatise Ethics (written in the 1660s), he rejected the providential God of Judaism and Christianity as a figment of the imagination.

Interesting, I like this guy.

[Unbeliever]

To be fair to them, I don't think they get paid for it. They just don't want anyone to upset their precious belief system.

Maybe they don't make money on their internet site, but they may well do so in meat-space. And they don't want their flocks to have access to real arguments, lest their meat-space money stream dries up.

[St Truth]

That and clergy were frequently agents of colonialism.  That might be part of the dis-attraction.  My ex-wife, who was clergy ... I was grateful that her church didn't make her wear clerical garb outside of the pulpit.

FYI about my avatar, and indirectly about me ... the first modern Jew:
https://lareviewofbooks.org/article/the-graphic-spinoza/#!

Are you a cultural Jew? I understand there are far more cultural Jews than cultural Christians. From what I've noticed, cultural Christians tend to lose the tradition/religion totally. Cultural Jews seem to hold on to their religion far better.

[Mike Cl]

Are you a cultural Jew? I understand there are far more cultural Jews than cultural Christians. From what I've noticed, cultural Christians tend to lose the tradition/religion totally. Cultural Jews seem to hold on to their religion far better.

You are a very well spoken poster.  But I do have a couple of questions.
Why is it important to maintain one's religion if one does not believe in god nor that Jesus was real?
What is it you mean by 'truth'? 

[Baruch]

Are you a cultural Jew? I understand there are far more cultural Jews than cultural Christians. From what I've noticed, cultural Christians tend to lose the tradition/religion totally. Cultural Jews seem to hold on to their religion far better.

Yes and no.  I came to religion as an adult, and Judaism thru Christianity (and interest in religion in general).  I wasn't raised religious or Jewish.  But I have come to both as an adult.  So cultural Jewish by choice, not by birth (though I do have a bit of Ashkenazi ancestry).  So most Jews wouldn't recognize me as Jewish ... but then I don't recognize them as Jewish either.  Two Jews, three opinions.

Yes, as a percentage, most Jews are cultural Jews (if they identify as Jewish at all (not completely assimilated)).  Usually they were raised cultural Jews or religious Jews (who have fallen into secularism).  An example of completely assimilated Jews, are those who came from Russia to Israel in the 1990s ... they are part of the building boom there for Russian Orthodox churches ;-)  Cultural Jews however are evangelized by Orthodox Jews, to get them turned back to faith and practice.  A newly fundie Jew is a Baal Teshuvah (master of repentance).  Lubavitcher are the most prominent evangelicals.  They tour around Jewish neighborhoods on Shabbat evangelizing like Jehovah's Witnesses.  My favorites are the NaNachs in Israel (they are Bratslaver).  Both Lubavitcher and Bratslaver are Hasidim (romantic Orthodox rather than intellectual Orthodox).  If you are raised cultural Jewish, you do often stay culturally Jewish.  One of my friends is like that, raised Jewish but secular now.  I did importune him with a book of prayers by Rabbi Nachman of Bratislav, the founder of the Bratslavers.  That rabbi (who lived over 200 years ago) is my favorite rabbi.  My friend remains secular, but over time he may become more observant thru prayer.

In America, people are pretty religious, just as part of the culture here.  We aren't like Europe or even Canada.  People are more likely to become Buddhist or Wiccan rather than fully secular.  There is a lot of evangelism of Islam among Blacks in prison here, and Skin Head evangelism among Whites in prison here.  Americans are more comfortable perhaps, with the disconnect between their materialistic/civil religion, and spiritual religion.  Consistency isn't a biggie with us.  So no, not that many Christians of say the 1990s have turned secular, but we change churches frequently (unlike say Anglicans).  A few have turned secular, but perhaps mostly because of not liking church politics.  Americans, outside of friends and family, frequently socialize thru church or synagogue.  We don't spend much time with political parties, outside of the election cycle, and then it is more like irrational football (soccer or American) hooliganism.  The political system is more healthy in Britain from what I can tell, people mostly socialize thru politics.

[St Truth]

You are a very well spoken poster.  But I do have a couple of questions.
Why is it important to maintain one's religion if one does not believe in god nor that Jesus was real?
What is it you mean by 'truth'?

It's not important. But some of us do it as a part of our culture. Christianity is the bedrock of Western civilisation. That cannot be disputed. All cultures have their myths and legends. But it's not important in the sense that it's really up to the person whether he wants to practise his culture.

Truth is that which accords with reality. For example, 'A loving and Almighty God exists' is not true. It cannot be true because it's an obvious contradiction. Incidentally, I just noticed that your signature says the same thing. It was one of the things I argued that got me banned from CF. They are very sensitive there.

[St Truth]

Yes and no.  I came to religion as an adult, and Judaism thru Christianity (and interest in religion in general).  I wasn't raised religious or Jewish.  But I have come to both as an adult.  So cultural Jewish by choice, not by birth (though I do have a bit of Ashkenazi ancestry).  So most Jews wouldn't recognize me as Jewish ... but then I don't recognize them as Jewish either.  Two Jews, three opinions.

Yes, as a percentage, most Jews are cultural Jews (if they identify as Jewish at all (not completely assimilated)).  Usually they were raised cultural Jews or religious Jews (who have fallen into secularism).  An example of completely assimilated Jews, are those who came from Russia to Israel in the 1990s ... they are part of the building boom there for Russian Orthodox churches ;-)  Cultural Jews however are evangelized by Orthodox Jews, to get them turned back to faith and practice.  A newly fundie Jew is a Baal Teshuvah (master of repentance).  Lubavitcher are the most prominent evangelicals.  They tour around Jewish neighborhoods on Shabbat evangelizing like Jehovah's Witnesses.  My favorites are the NaNachs in Israel (they are Bratslaver).  Both Lubavitcher and Bratslaver are Hasidim (romantic Orthodox rather than intellectual Orthodox).  If you are raised cultural Jewish, you do often stay culturally Jewish.  One of my friends is like that, raised Jewish but secular now.  I did importune him with a book of prayers by Rabbi Nachman of Bratislav, the founder of the Bratslavers.  That rabbi (who lived over 200 years ago) is my favorite rabbi.  My friend remains secular, but over time he may become more observant thru prayer.

In America, people are pretty religious, just as part of the culture here.  We aren't like Europe or even Canada.  People are more likely to become Buddhist or Wiccan rather than fully secular.  There is a lot of evangelism of Islam among Blacks in prison here, and Skin Head evangelism among Whites in prison here.  Americans are more comfortable perhaps, with the disconnect between their materialistic/civil religion, and spiritual religion.  Consistency isn't a biggie with us.  So no, not that many Christians of say the 1990s have turned secular, but we change churches frequently (unlike say Anglicans).  A few have turned secular, but perhaps mostly because of not liking church politics.  Americans, outside of friends and family, frequently socialize thru church or synagogue.  We don't spend much time with political parties, outside of the election cycle, and then it is more like irrational football (soccer or American) hooliganism.  The political system is more healthy in Britain from what I can tell, people mostly socialize thru politics.

Why did you pick Judaism? Of the many gods and goddesses at your disposal, why choose Yahweh? Did you have to go through the requirements of the faith? Such as circumcision? The need to be circumcised would immediately turn me off a religion.

I find it puzzling because you were not brought up in the faith. If I weren't brought up a Christian, I'd happily be an atheist today. There is NOTHING that would recommend any religion to me if not for the fact that it's a part of my identity and culture.

[Unbeliever]

Christianity is the bedrock of Western civilisation.

A bedrock that's built on quicksand?

[SGOS]

All I did was to say that religion was irrational in reply to Christians who insisted that they didn't have enough 'faith' to be atheists. I showed why the Christian God could not possibly exist and I entered into a few debates with some of them who tried to befuddle me with philosophy.

Years ago, I called myself a Christian, because I grew up in a Christian home, but you know the no true Scotsman fallacy?  Even I realized a wasn't a "true" Christian.  Yeah, it was still a fallacy, but in my case it was more of a lie.  I really should have avoided identifying as a Christian, because some of the crap was too much to believe.  In fact, I guess I thought it was a bad thing to believe, morally and intellectually, both.

OK, I suppose they got some things right: Do unto others; Don't murder people.  But that god of theirs?!  Even when I was 10, it was really too much to believe in.  He was incomprehensible, irrational, infinitely everything, and I'm running out of "i" words.  Oh, I believed there must be a god, because I hadn't been introduced to logic, but whatever he might be, or what he might have wanted, or if he had a personality, I didn't have a clue.  I imagined a shapeless form much like the luminiferous æther.  I was sure the Christian god could not exist in the form described in the Bible.

Maybe I could rightly call myself a Christian and still avoid the hypocrisy because I really did believe that most Christians didn't believe most of the stuff either.  I figured they were like me, just putting on a good face.  But some actually believe it, and the wackier their beliefs get, the more sensitive they are apt to be about it.

[St Truth]

A bedrock that's built on quicksand?

Not by any means. Western civilisation is pretty strong. You have used the wrong analogy probably because of your rabid antipathy against religion. If it were built on quicksand, Western civilisation would have floundered. But you are not suggesting that. What you meant was Christianity was not rational. It consists of myths and superstitions. That is not in dispute. But it's a different matter altogether.

[St Truth]

Years ago, I called myself a Christian, because I grew up in a Christian home, but you know the no true Scotsman fallacy?  Even I realized a wasn't a "true" Christian.  Yeah, it was still a fallacy, but in my case it was more of a lie.  I really should have avoided identifying as a Christian, because some of the crap was too much to believe.  In fact, I guess I thought it was a bad thing to believe, morally and intellectually, both.

OK, I suppose they got some things right: Do unto others; Don't murder people.  But that god of theirs?!  Even when I was 10, it was really too much to believe in.  He was incomprehensible, irrational, infinitely everything, and I'm running out of "i" words.  Oh, I believed there must be a god, because I hadn't been introduced to logic, but whatever he might be, or what he might have wanted, or if he had a personality, I didn't have a clue.  I imagined a shapeless form much like the luminiferous æther.  I was sure the Christian god could not exist in the form described in the Bible.

Maybe I could rightly call myself a Christian and still avoid the hypocrisy because I really did believe that most Christians didn't believe most of the stuff either.  I figured they were like me, just putting on a good face.  But some actually believe it, and the wackier their beliefs get, the more sensitive they are apt to be about it.

You have a very fundamentalist understanding of Christianity. I have noticed that many Americans have this fixed understanding of religion. When Richard Dawkins explained that he would lead in prayer when grace was said in New College, Oxford where he's a Fellow, many American atheists were outraged. But this stand taken by these atheists will only lead religious people to think however falsely that atheism is a religion with its own brand of fundamentalism.  I suspect many of them were brought up in fundamentalist Christian homes and this is a rebellion against their many years of childhood subjugation to religion.

[St Truth]

This kind of fundamentalism isn't seen in the Far East. They seem to have a better understanding of culture and they know that of course every culture has its myths. For example, the Chinese observe a special month which is the paying of homage to the moon. Like all cultures, it's steeped in fables and superstition. It has something to do with saving the moon from some dragon that threatens to swallow it up. People used to gather to eat cakes and recite poems to chase away the dragon. Today, absolutely nobody believes in the dragon swallowing up the moon any more. But you still see mooncakes being sold and eaten and people still celebrate their culture with much feasting and poetry reading. If a fundamentalist atheist were to stand up and tell everyone, 'Hey, there is no dragon that eats up the moon so why are you celebrating and eating mooncakes?' everyone would think he has gone mad.  You don't hear anybody (and there are many atheists among Chinese people) laughing at people outside temples and saying 'believers in moon-eating dragons' the way American atheists are always saying 'believers in the talking snake'. You don't see such belligerence in the Far East and mind you, nobody there believes in the moon-eating dragon.

I think what we see here is a failure by some atheists to accept that ancient men believed in silly things but there is no shame to participate in a cultural activity. I suppose to be consistent, these atheists will avoid words like 'goodbye' which is literally 'God be with you' and they won't follow the Gregorian calendar because it's obviously religious and dates from the supposed birth of 'zombie-God Jesus', as they call him. They also will avoid much of Western classical music and they won't read much of literature especially Milton and many other poets. What they don't realise is you don't have to be culturally barren to be an atheist. You need not be anti-culture.

[St Truth]

In my native country (not the one I'm in at the moment), my church is a state church. When the monarch is crowned, it's done by the head of the church in an ancient cathedral. Everyone attends church for the ceremony. But in my country, there are more atheists than in the US. The US has 50% who believe in a 10,000-year-old universe which is a disgrace. And yet you don't see people in my country jumping as if they're on hot coals every time they hear a prayer said. It's this hatred for culture that distinguishes the American atheist from atheists all over the world including those in the Far East.

[Hijiri Byakuren]

I don't understand why you'd waste your time going to a Christian forum to debate this stuff. They find you just as annoying as we find them. Go to a dedicated debate space for that shit.