Author Topic: Right In the Feels: Teens React to DACA  (Read 258 times)

Online Shiranu (OP)

Right In the Feels: Teens React to DACA
« on: September 13, 2017, 03:46:55 AM »



One interesting thing, didn't realise how much of this was because of the states putting pressure on Trump to get rid of it. Completely and utterly ashamed of myself to see that my representative, even if I didn't vote for him, was actively pushing for this to happen and that the majority voted for this guy knowing it's part of his ideology.
"No one is born hating another person because of the color of his skin or his background or his religion..." - Nelson Mandela

"Too much sanity may be madness and the maddest of all, to see life as it is and not as it should be." - Miguel de Cervantes

Offline Baruch

Re: Right In the Feels: Teens React to DACA
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2017, 06:52:35 AM »
And unfortunate and cruel decision, right up Republican alley.  Except they don't enforce the law ... on upperclass White folks ;-)

And I hate the Democrats, for exploiting the poor and downtrodden ... for votes.  They don't love those ... they love the same bankers the Republicans do.  Just ask Hillary and Goldman-Sachs.
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Offline Cavebear

Re: Right In the Feels: Teens React to DACA
« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2017, 03:24:29 AM »
If you grow up in the US and know no other country or culture or language, it is simply to cruel to force you out to a place you know nothing about.  Imagine yourself deported to Thailand, for example.  No money, no job. No concept of the culture.  How would you survive? 
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Re: Right In the Feels: Teens React to DACA
« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2017, 07:48:20 PM »
Give them a bus ticket home - just the ones dragged here by their law breaking parent(s).  One year to apply for the bus ticket and no penalty for being in the usa illegally. 

The application for the bus ticket could include any substantial usa activities; proof of h.s. graduation, college etc for use in the application for immigration - which could be weighted on legitimate attempt to immigrate. 

There should not be any amnesty for illegals.  Sorry but I have worked with both legal and illegals.  I know how hard the legals worked to get here and I know of the illegals I have talked to about their journey, not ONE tried to do it legally.  All of the illegals claimed it was the expense.  Bullshit.  I have worked with legal immigrants who waited in/born in refugee camps, with 2 family members making it over, saving money to get the rest of the family here.  You think they didnt face dangers in their families journey?   But they managed to do it legally.

Africans with the same story, minus the refuge camps.  Getting one family member over and going through the legitimate process to bring over the rest.  War torn countries.  Sierra Leon, Kenya, Somalia, Liberia, Cameroon, Ethiopia...  Anyone think these are 'rich' immigrants?  They worked hard to do it the right way.

BTW, all of these illegals I have talked to have families back in mex/s.america.  These video 'kids' are not orphans with no families to lean on until they complete the process.  Its the message that needs to be sent.  Immigration has rules that you must follow to be allowed into the USA, just like all these named countries have rules I must follow if I wanted to immigrate there.


Offline Baruch

Re: Right In the Feels: Teens React to DACA
« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2017, 07:54:17 PM »
If you grow up in the US and know no other country or culture or language, it is simply to cruel to force you out to a place you know nothing about.  Imagine yourself deported to Thailand, for example.  No money, no job. No concept of the culture.  How would you survive?

There was a movie about that ... some smug upper class White male, woke up in a foreign country with no money and not speaking the language.  We should all do that, then we would know the meaning of humility, and never speak of 3rd world again, as if the unclean masses might get our bourgeois existence dirty.  I would love to see every entitled asshole end up in prison as a girlfriend ... serves them right.
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Online Shiranu (OP)

Re: Right In the Feels: Teens React to DACA
« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2017, 08:19:09 PM »
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There should not be any amnesty for illegals.

When even the mainline republican party isn't as illogical or heartless as you, I think it's time to take a good, long hard look at your position...
"No one is born hating another person because of the color of his skin or his background or his religion..." - Nelson Mandela

"Too much sanity may be madness and the maddest of all, to see life as it is and not as it should be." - Miguel de Cervantes

Offline Baruch

Re: Right In the Feels: Teens React to DACA
« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2017, 08:22:32 PM »
When even the mainline republican party isn't as illogical or heartless as you, I think it's time to take a good, long hard look at your position...

I don't think he realizes that everyone, not Native American, is an illegal ;-(
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Re: Right In the Feels: Teens React to DACA
« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2017, 08:58:01 PM »
When even the mainline republican party isn't as illogical or heartless as you, I think it's time to take a good, long hard look at your position...
Just more of your simplistic world view.  If anyone does not agree with you, its illogical.... You are like a poorly trained parrot. Squaaking all day long without any new thoughts.  Must rely on others ideas...

Heartless?  The law (not obamas circumvent of the proper way to implement immigration law changes) right now puts anyone 19 or older as an illegal without the benefit of No Penalty for legal immigration.  IIRC, that means return to country of origin and a three year wait to apply for immigration.  I also am willing to accept various USA obtained inputs and a weighted system to reduce the wait to return legally.

And its way too easy for you to ignore the millions and millions of immigrants who did it the RIGHT way, proving there are open borders in the usa, for those who are willing to put in the effort.  But you are a coward and a sock puppet who is soo convinced of your own 'superiority' that you believe yourself to be benevolent, rather than callous towards those who are more honest than yourself.

Offline Baruch

Re: Right In the Feels: Teens React to DACA
« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2017, 10:06:21 PM »
More virtue signalling, without real virtue.  You are assuming any of these laws are valid, instead of just a sick joke by the Elite.
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Online Shiranu (OP)

Re: Right In the Feels: Teens React to DACA
« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2017, 02:24:17 AM »
It's not illogical because you disagree, it is illogical because you are saying we should forfeit an overwhelming large net gain because it's the law. That is illogical. Rather than uphold the quo just because it's the quo, uphold it because it does the most good for the most people or oppose it because it doesn't.

The overwhelming majority of immigrants, and particularly DREAMers, are both hard-working, productive citizens as well as tax paying, law abiding people. When you look at the statistics for DACA recipients, they are near the top of any group in America in regards to education and productivity, and they did that in constant fear. To say we need to get rid of these people because their parents brought them here illegally is simply illogical, there is no other way to word that. It's not about agreeing with me... we could see differently on how to make them citizens, for example... but to tell people that absolutely busted their asses off since they were children because they want to be one of us that they don't deserve to live in the only place they have ever called home is simply, again, illogical and shooting yourself in the foot.

I think the current system is at its core heartless. I realise the need for vetting people coming into this country, but the problem is that the number of people who can legally come into the country per year is pathetically small when compared to the number of good people who apply for citizenship. That leaves two options; either we have to get our immigration policies reformed and vastly expand our resources to better deal with the numbers, or accept that they will come here illegally and work to accommodate their transition from illegal immigrant to law abiding, tax paying citizen. But to turn hard working people away is simply not an acceptable solution if we wish to remain competitive in a global economy.

My ancestors came here illegally; since then, we have been business owners, officers in the military during WW2, Korea, Vietnam and desert storm. We haven't murdered anyone, raped anyone, brought in drugs and prostitutes...we simply lived simple lives and served our country even when it wanted to turn it's back on us. So when you say they should be deported, you are saying that my family, that was awarded the silver star at the battle of the bulge, who were exposed to chemical weapons in Iraq, who fought the communists in Vietnam and Korea, who worked as bomb diffusers for elite teams in Colombia and the middle east, who ran successful small businesses and paid more than their fair share of taxes, should have never had these opportunities to serve their country with distinction because their parents came here illegally and should have been deported... It's just simply ridiculous. Honestly, I really don't think you have actually thought your position through because at the end of the day nearly all Americans are either illegal or came here when there were no formal laws restricting immigration. To act like illegal immigration is an issue now is to completely ignore the majority of American history, to ignore what made us one of the greatest and most diverse nations on earth. So again, it is by it's very nature an illogical and also hypocritical position to take.

Where exactly am I ignoring the millions of legal immigrants? I think that's great they got here legally. But what you are telling me to do is therefore ignore the millions of people who dropped literally everything they had, who left for a land they don't know, with a language they don't speak, because they were desperate enough to do so. It's sheer ignorance to believe that these people who came here illegally choose to live in constant fear on a whim. Do you think people would choose to live here illegally, risking everything, if they didn't think they had a better choice? Do you think the millions who came here illegally from counties racked with violence and corruption (often of our own creation) could just, "wait till they could get here legally?". You want to talk about ignoring people, why then do you ignore those who are struggling, who are in constant fear, and tell them they are horrible people who deserve to lose their life, again, and be sent back to where they left everything they had for the dream of a better life. That is simply heartless.

You seem so opposed to my "simple" ideas, but simple is how life should be. Simple implies that you have enough of a grasp on a situation to not have to make it more complicated than it really is. You want to talk all of this talk about how ignorant I am when I spent my entire life surrounded by illegals (South Texas, New Mexico) and being a descendant of some myself, yet it is you who chooses to be willfully ignorant and heartless because the law tells you to. If those are my two options, then I'll choose the side of simplicity any day.
"No one is born hating another person because of the color of his skin or his background or his religion..." - Nelson Mandela

"Too much sanity may be madness and the maddest of all, to see life as it is and not as it should be." - Miguel de Cervantes

Re: Right In the Feels: Teens React to DACA
« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2017, 09:46:58 AM »
The overwhelming majority of immigrants, and particularly DREAMers, are both hard-working, productive citizens as well as tax paying, law abiding people. When you look at the statistics for DACA recipients, they are near the top of any group in America in regards to education and productivity, and they did that in constant fear. To say we need to get rid of these people because their parents brought them here illegally is simply illogical, there is no other way to word that.
Link(s) please.

It is not 'illogical' to apply the laws to people who circumvented the rules to achieve their personal goals.  They are attempting to 'steal' an immigration slot they are not entitled to.  There are methods to put themselves back on the equal footing the global immigrants are on, but that is the thorn in their sides.  They don't want equal,  they want to be treated as special, via their parents poor choices.
Quote from: Shiranu
I realise the need for vetting people coming into this country, but the problem is that the number of people who can legally come into the country per year is pathetically small when compared to the number of good people who apply for citizenship.

The USA is (iirc) the 3rd most populated country in the world. At least in the top 5. There are very good reasons for having a limit on the numbers of people allowed into a country, not the least of which is the ability of the usa to provide the best opportunity for those who do arrive on these shores legally.  There are needs of these legal immigrants that have to be accommodated, which fall on the backs of the tax-payers themselves, legally here.  These are finite resources.
Quote from: Shiranu
My ancestors came here illegally; since then, we have been business owners, officers in the military during WW2, Korea, Vietnam and desert storm. We haven't murdered anyone, raped anyone, brought in drugs and prostitutes...we simply lived simple lives and served our country even when it wanted to turn it's back on us. So when you say they should be deported, you are saying that my family, that was awarded the silver star at the battle of the bulge, who were exposed to chemical weapons in Iraq, who fought the communists in Vietnam and Korea, who worked as bomb diffusers for elite teams in Colombia and the middle east, who ran successful small businesses and paid more than their fair share of taxes, should have never had these opportunities to serve their country with distinction because their parents came here illegally and should have been deported... It's just simply ridiculous.
Says you,  but you have a reason for your bias.  Its selfish to extrapolate your current status, with these (assumed) dead persons.  What your ancestors did was selfish or ignorant, unsure of which, but they should have been held to the same rules.  They got by with it, but that does not change the existing issue and laws regarding immigration.

Quote from: Shiranu
Honestly, I really don't think you have actually thought your position through because at the end of the day nearly all Americans are either illegal or came here when there were no formal laws restricting immigration. To act like illegal immigration is an issue now is to completely ignore the majority of American history, to ignore what made us one of the greatest and most diverse nations on earth. So again, it is by it's very nature an illogical and also hypocritical position to take.
Well, thats your opinion not based on the facts.  The first immigration laws were written shortly after the USA became an independent nation.  Of the family history traced back, or so current it was a living memory when I was born, my family immigrated here legally.  All of them, some parts separated by many, many years, others by less than a generation.

Quote from: Shiranu
Where exactly am I ignoring the millions of legal immigrants? I think that's great they got here legally. But what you are telling me to do is therefore ignore the millions of people who dropped literally everything they had, who left for a land they don't know, with a language they don't speak, because they were desperate enough to do so.

Appeal to emotion.  You cannot speak for the motives of millions and ignore the majority were looking for money.  That is the constant theme.  I wanted to make money.  Not unlike the gold rush, rather it is the green rush.  And that impacts each and every legal immigrant who followed the rules, who didnt stand around Home Depot [example] looking for day jobs, impacted each legal citizen who created student debt to get an education in [for example] horticulture because they wanted to work outdoors.

There is only one way to curb illegal immigration and that is to ensure illegals will not benefit from their sneaking into the usa. 

Offline Baruch

Re: Right In the Feels: Teens React to DACA
« Reply #11 on: September 15, 2017, 01:10:43 PM »
Justice without mercy?  That isn't worth doing.
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Online Munch

Re: Right In the Feels: Teens React to DACA
« Reply #12 on: September 15, 2017, 01:18:33 PM »

There is only one way to curb illegal immigration and that is to ensure illegals will not benefit from their sneaking into the usa.

But that would mean having stricter immigration laws instead of an open door policy. Oh noooo :(

Online Shiranu (OP)

Re: Right In the Feels: Teens React to DACA
« Reply #13 on: September 15, 2017, 01:46:02 PM »
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Link(s) please.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/26/us/trump-illegal-immigrants-crime.html?mcubz=0

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/fact-check-immigration-doesnt-bring-crime-u-s-data-say/

https://www.americanimmigrationcouncil.org/research/criminalization-immigration-united-states?
utm_content=buffercf974&utm_source=buffer&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Buffer

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/illegal-immigrants-and-crime-how-big-a-problem-is-crime-committed-by-immigrants/

http://www.businessinsider.com/immigrants-commit-less-crime-than-native-born-americans-trump-speech-2017-3

https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-mythical-connection-between-immigrants-and-crime-1436916798

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The USA is (iirc) the 3rd most populated country in the world. At least in the top 5. There are very good reasons for having a limit on the numbers of people allowed into a country, not the least of which is the ability of the usa to provide the best opportunity for those who do arrive on these shores legally.  There are needs of these legal immigrants that have to be accommodated, which fall on the backs of the tax-payers themselves, legally here.  These are finite resources.

Illegal and legal immigrants aren't usually competing for jobs, though. One overwhelmingly joins the labour force, which we drastically need more people for, and the other joins more "educated" jobs, which we drastically need more people for.

There are finite resources, but we are no where near that point.

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Says you,  but you have a reason for your bias.  Its selfish to extrapolate your current status, with these (assumed) dead persons.  What your ancestors did was selfish or ignorant, unsure of which, but they should have been held to the same rules.  They got by with it, but that does not change the existing issue and laws regarding immigration.

Right. It was selfish when they had to change their last name and stop speaking their native tongue at home because everyone was afraid of Germans and they wanted to be American more than they wanted to be German. It was selfish when their children went to Germany to fight their own countrymen, when they received a silver star for charging a Nazi gun nest strapped with grenades to save their squad, when they were fire bombing German cities and doing missions over Berlin. It was selfish when they served as officer in Korea and Vietnam to "stop the spread of Communism".  It was selfish when they ran their gas station and convenience shop and paid their taxes, did excellent work, and paid their taxes. It was selfish that they never taught their children how to speak German or Spanish, because they were American and Americans spoke English at home.

Give me a break, man. My family paid for the right to be here with their blood, sweat and tears and so to do the majority of immigrants who move here today. You're entire argument basically comes down to, "Follow the law because it's the law!", but would you sing the same song if the law was to burn all books the state disagrees with? To denounce science because politicians disagree with it? Would you still be singing the same tune about people who hid the books, who secretly taught science at school? Likely not, because that is both logically and emotionally stupid. Yet when it's about a group that doesn't effect you directly, suddenly that argument becomes more compelling.

Nah, fuck that. Don't even come in here talking to me about selfish when that's all your entire argument is.

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Well, thats your opinion not based on the facts.  The first immigration laws were written shortly after the USA became an independent nation.  Of the family history traced back, or so current it was a living memory when I was born, my family immigrated here legally.  All of them, some parts separated by many, many years, others by less than a generation.

Big fucking whoop. All you have proved is both legal and illegal immigrants work hard. I never disagreed with that, infact I completely agree with it which is why we need to vastly expand our immigration policy so that all immigrants who want to contribute have a quick and fair chance of doing so.

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Appeal to emotion.

Yes, it is. Because law based only on "logic" is fucking terrible. That's how we got eugenics here in the states. That's how we justified keeping women in the kitchen. That's how we justified segregation. Basically every non-religious law we have had has been justified on pure logic.

The law should be about protecting and helping people, and that requires emotion. That requires love and compassion. So any consideration of the law must therefor include emotion in it as well as logic. 

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But that would mean having stricter immigration laws instead of an open door policy. Oh noooo :(

America doesn't have an open door policy on immigration, our immigration laws are extremely strict compared to most countries, with only 4 countries being considered stricter than us (3 in Europe [Austria, Germany, Switzerland] and then Japan) And of those European ones, they are very open to immigrants coming from rough situations, far more so than America.

 For once, please wait to talk about American culture until you have actually learned about it.
"No one is born hating another person because of the color of his skin or his background or his religion..." - Nelson Mandela

"Too much sanity may be madness and the maddest of all, to see life as it is and not as it should be." - Miguel de Cervantes

Online Shiranu (OP)

Re: Right In the Feels: Teens React to DACA
« Reply #14 on: September 15, 2017, 01:55:54 PM »
Again, to summarize.

--->"Illegal immigrants are wrong because they broke the law coming here."
--->"Despite statistics that they are less violent and pay their fair share of taxes, they should have their livelyhood and life as they know it stripped from them because they broke the law."
--->"The law is the law is the law."

Now use that exact same argument to justify book burning. Use it to justify not teaching climate change in school. Look at it having been historically used to justify eugenics. Look at it's historical use of saying sure, segregation is bad, but it's better than the alternative. Look at that argument being used to justify continuing the war on drugs rather than addressing it in a logical manner.

I'm sorry, but the argument you have chosen to back has historically, and remains to this day, an extremely flimsy argument at best and at worse has been used to justify some of the absolute worst behaviour of Americans that even we now recognize as immoral and horrible. The fact that Munch is the one person that agrees with you here should tell you a lot about which side of the fence you are on... and it's not the humane or winning one.

The heartless had their chance to run America, and they have run it into the ground every time. The American people will only put up with this shit for so long before they turn on you and make sure your ideology has no place in the government, and that time is getting closer and closer when even mainline Democrats and Republicans are now agreeing that your immigration policies are barbaric and heartless.
"No one is born hating another person because of the color of his skin or his background or his religion..." - Nelson Mandela

"Too much sanity may be madness and the maddest of all, to see life as it is and not as it should be." - Miguel de Cervantes