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Atheism Poll

Started by Drew_2017, September 09, 2017, 03:39:24 PM

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Mike Cl

Yesterday evening in prime time, there was a TV commercial for 'Magical Spring Water' made so by a Popoff (minister I guess)--this would result in your getting money from an unanticipated source--and this is free, of course.  Prime time, no less.  I bet he doesn't drive an old VW!
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Unbeliever

I bet he doesn't drive a new VW either.
God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

Cavebear

Quote from: Unbeliever on September 19, 2017, 10:47:59 AM
I don't think he's an idiot, but a very smart, well-practiced manipulator of words that sound profound but are merely misleading.

Sorry, my definition of "idiot" is rather broad.  Manipulating scammers fit right in there.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Cavebear

No, he probably drives a fancy new car and drinks $3000 dollar bottles of wine.  Scammers like him do that to show off their Illegitimate  ill-gotten gains among themselves out of sight of the suckers they prey on.

I don't mind people enjoying legitimate wealth.  It's the excess of price over value that curls my neck hairs...
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Drew_2017

Quote from: SGOS on September 19, 2017, 02:08:53 AM
This is why theism has more in common with strong atheism than weak atheism.  Both claim to know something.  Whether the epistemology is based on knowing by way of faith or knowing by way of facts, they both claim truth based on the knowledge claim.  KNOWLEDGE is what separates strong atheism from weak atheism, not some arbitrary tipping point where one is actually stronger than the other  Strong atheism just claims knowledge, as does faith based theism.  At least this is the definition I learned.  Some self identified strong atheists contest that definition, as I'm guessing you do.  Such is the weakness of semantic arguments, which I usually try to avoid.

Probably best if I spoke for myself only. Theism is a belief I have about the most basic question that can be asked. Why is there a universe? Why do we exist? How and why did it come about that we exist? Was it some fortuitous act of serendipity or was it intentionally caused? Unfortunately evidence is often a mixed bag. The Jon Bennet Ramsey case is a perfect example. A strong circumstantial case can be made for accusing or exonerating her parents from the evidence.


QuoteI disagree that the debate is pointless.  You have only stated half the issue when you claim that neither the weak atheist or the theist denies God's existence.  What you ignore is that the weak atheist does not hold a belief in God, while the theist does.  This is a major oversight, and therein is where the debate and discussions of epistemology and logic take place.You make it sound like letting the cat out of the bag is when a weak atheist reveals he has actual knowledge.  If he makes a claim, it would be good practice to justify it, as trdsf did earlier in regards to epistemology.

I do end up debating those who claim to be weak atheists but they typically reveal their inner strong atheist before too long and their clear bias toward naturalistic explanations in lieu of evidence.

QuoteThat's probably because there is no strong reason to be skeptical of natural forces.  We can observe them, and indeed they do appear to be mindless, even if someone else tries to imply they do have a mind.  However, skepticism does apply to "where it all came from" because we have no evidence for or against creation (defined as something coming from nothing).  No evidence for or against any force existing prior to the universe that would have exerted a causal effect, and no evidence for against there always being something there.  I would be skeptical of any answer at this point.  But natural forces have been observed.  God, not so much.

I appreciate your objectivity...one caveat naturalistic forces exist but no one is proposing the naturalistic forces we observe caused their own existence. The only reason we exist is because the naturalistic forces we observe seem to have rules of behavior that allow our existence.

QuoteI accept that is your opinion.  But my opinion is that "existence, therefore Creator" is non sequitur, and is customarily avoided in logic.  That doesn't make it wrong of course.  Hell, I don't even deny a creator.  It just makes it illogical.

The existence of the universe is only one line of evidence in favor of theism. By itself inconclusive.

Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.
Albert Einstein

https://www.dropbox.com/s/jex6k2uvf9aljrq/theism.rtf?dl=0

Unbeliever

OK, so what other "lines of evidence" favor theism?
God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

Drew_2017

Quote from: Cavebear on September 19, 2017, 02:22:16 AM
Which is why any mention of "faith" has to be considered irrational and illogical.

Not necessarily. I know the popular definition of faith is believing in something without a shred of evidence its true. An even greater faith is to believe when the evidence is contrary to something believed. Its a nuanced word also. I can't think of a greater leap of faith then when a pilot lands a plane in complete darkness using only on board instruments. He has to have faith in those instruments because he has no way of confirming if what they report is true.
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.
Albert Einstein

https://www.dropbox.com/s/jex6k2uvf9aljrq/theism.rtf?dl=0

Unbeliever

You're confusing the meaning of the word faith, as in "confidence" with faith as in "belief." They aren't the same at all.
God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

Drew_2017

Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.
Albert Einstein

https://www.dropbox.com/s/jex6k2uvf9aljrq/theism.rtf?dl=0

Drew_2017

Quote from: Unbeliever on September 19, 2017, 07:22:18 PM
You're confusing the meaning of the word faith, as in "confidence" with faith as in "belief." They aren't the same at all.


faith
fāTH/Submit
noun
1.
complete trust or confidence in someone or something.


You just want it to mean belief in something for no reason.
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.
Albert Einstein

https://www.dropbox.com/s/jex6k2uvf9aljrq/theism.rtf?dl=0

Mike Cl

Quote from: Drew_2017 on September 19, 2017, 07:18:56 PM
Not necessarily. I know the popular definition of faith is believing in something without a shred of evidence its true. An even greater faith is to believe when the evidence is contrary to something believed. Its a nuanced word also. I can't think of a greater leap of faith then when a pilot lands a plane in complete darkness using only on board instruments. He has to have faith in those instruments because he has no way of confirming if what they report is true.
This is a huge problem, Drew.  How you explain faith.  I like to think I have faith in nothing--nor believe in nothing.  Let me explain.  When that pilot lands that plane in fog or darkness, I don't need either faith or belief--I trust he will land the craft safely because of his training and experience.  His instruments have been tested many times, and functioned in the situation he was in many times and found adequate.  My trust comes from, not faith, but thinking he has done it before successfully and that he is going to do it again.  Actually evidence shows that he will do so successfully.

For you it seems faith and trust are the same thing.  This is what the bible says:  "Hebrews 11:1, “Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.”  If I were to have any evidence of things not seen, I would then accept that evidence and act upon it accordingly.  But evidence means something substantial, not something hinted at or suggested. 

Do you see why we keep butting heads abut this?
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Baruch

Quote from: SGOS on September 19, 2017, 09:17:15 AM
Poetry often utilizes word play to change intent and meaning, and the word flow has a hypnotic effect causing people to accept gibberish as truth.  It can actually sound like profound truth, but it's still just gibberish.  We see this technique used by Deepak Chopra and everyday Bible thumpers.

Thank you Plato.  Homer is still more fun to read than you are ;-)
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Baruch

#237
Quote from: Unbeliever on September 19, 2017, 10:47:59 AM
I don't think he's an idiot, but a very smart, well-practiced manipulator of words that sound profound but are merely misleading.

There are many Easterners who have bamboozled Westerners.  We are very gullible compared to Hindu villagers and have more money to give.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Baruch

Quote from: Cavebear on September 19, 2017, 11:48:47 AM
Sorry, my definition of "idiot" is rather broad.  Manipulating scammers fit right in there.

Fascism arrives in America, wrapped in a flag and thumping a Bible.  But either major party qualifies.  What do you have against "caveat emptor" and Madison Avenue?
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Baruch

Quote from: SGOS on September 19, 2017, 10:56:50 AM
Some cons are good at what they do and take pride in their ability to mislead others.  It's a skill, like computer programming or chemical engineering.  Many lucrative sources of personal income are based on skills of deception.  The good con artists are rich, famous, and powerful.

Founders of religions, regimes or whole countries ... are mega scammers.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.