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Atheism Poll

Started by Drew_2017, September 09, 2017, 03:39:24 PM

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Baruch

Quote from: Unbeliever on September 10, 2017, 10:08:07 PM
Theologians aren't peer-reviewed.


Cause and effect may be emergent properties of the large-scale universe. On the quantum scale cause/effect doesn't seem to operate. This is why the first-cause argument has lost whatever force it may once have had.

Also, the cyclic universe model has recently been firmed up, using M-theory. Steinhardt and Turok wrote all about it in Endless Universe.

They are peer reviewed (see Pope).  And cross-checked (see Pope).  But they aren't experimentally reproduced.  Kill Jewish carpenter, wait three days ;-((

Sorry, pop science is so much ... science fiction.  Get an experiment where you create stuff ex nihilo ... and I will agree.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Cavebear

Quote from: Blackleaf on September 11, 2017, 01:04:30 AM
The natural is a part of our every day experiences. The supernatural is not. If you want to claim that the natural doesn't really exist, good luck with that. But I'm not going to let you off the hook for trying to switch the burden of proof or redefine the definition of belief to suit your needs.

I agree.  It seems routine for "Those Of Little Critical Thinking Ability" to assume the burden of proof about atheism rests on the atheists.  The theists started the idea, it is their problem to defend it.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Baruch

Quote from: Unbeliever on September 10, 2017, 10:16:56 PM
Part of the reason I don't believe in a supernatural God is that I don't believe in anything else of a supernatural, uh, nature. No ghosts, no goblins, no gods.

I don't believe in anything being natural.  That is just a crazy idea by Thales et al.  Also I don't believe in arithmetic or geometry.  That is just a cray idea by Pythagoras et al.  I also don't accept Homer or Plato.  I am done with crazy Greeks ;-)
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Cavebear

Quote from: Baruch on September 11, 2017, 01:13:52 AM
I don't believe in anything being natural.  That is just a crazy idea by Thales et al.  Also I don't believe in arithmetic or geometry.  That is just a cray idea by Pythagoras et al.  I also don't accept Homer or Plato.  I am done with crazy Greeks ;-)

Yeah, the sons on the squaw on the hippopotomus hide are NOT equal to the sons of the squaws on the other 2 hides...
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Baruch

Quote from: Cavebear on September 11, 2017, 01:20:43 AM
Yeah, the sons on the squaw on the hippopotomus hide are NOT equal to the sons of the squaws on the other 2 hides...

Funny, but it actually was borrowed from Egypt and Babylon.  And it isn't even true in general (say on a sphere, like the surface of the Earth).  Not a bad approximation, as the Egyptians and Babylonians used it ... using only measuring ropes and no proper surveying equipment.  But it isn't truth (contrary to Kant).  Kant couldn't have "a priori" dealt with non-Euclidean geometry.  And spherical geometry (already available in his day as celestial coordinates and navigation on the land or sea).
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Cavebear

Quote from: Baruch on September 11, 2017, 01:26:41 AM
Funny, but it actually was borrowed from Egypt and Babylon.  And it isn't even true in general (say on a sphere, like the surface of the Earth).  Not a bad approximation, as the Egyptians and Babylonians used it ... using only measuring ropes and no proper surveying equipment.  But it isn't truth (contrary to Kant).  Kant couldn't have "a priori" dealt with non-Euclidean geometry.  And spherical geometry (already available in his day as celestial coordinates and navigation on the land or sea).

Plane geometry doesn't apply to the curved surface of the Earth.  You get into non-Euclidian geometry there. where the angles are 180 degree+.  Kant can't apply there anyway.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

fencerider

If your neighbor takes a dump in your yard, how do you measure it? Can't use planar geometry. I dont think you can use spherical geometry either... ;-)


OP: all I can say for sure is that god doesn't give a rat's ass about any of us.

Just as there are people that think you should be kissin a cop's ass that start grovelling everytime one shows up, there are some that would immediately start kow-towing if someone claiming to be god showed up. Not me. If some one named god shows up my first reaction will be "What do you want?" I'm not gonna be gettin in the ground kissin the dirt. (if the god of the Bible is real, he will have to send himself to Hell for his atrocious behavior)


As I said before, it doesn't matter to me whether or not there is a Creator. It's not going to change what time I get up to go to work tommorrow. It doesn't get me a bigger pay check to know with 100% certainty that the earth is less than 10,000 years old or to know the universe is 17 billion years old. - Maybe Drew thinks the existence of a Creator is proof that a god exists, but I don't. You can't make the argument a Creator existed => god exists without filling in the details
"Do you believe in god?", is not a proper English sentence. Unless you believe that, "Do you believe in apple?", is a proper English sentence.

Cavebear

Quote from: fencerider on September 11, 2017, 03:58:46 AM
If your neighbor takes a dump in your yard, how do you measure it? Can't use planar geometry. I dont think you can use spherical geometry either... ;-)


OP: all I can say for sure is that god doesn't give a rat's ass about any of us.

Just as there are people that think you should be kissin a cop's ass that start grovelling everytime one shows up, there are some that would immediately start kow-towing if someone claiming to be god showed up. Not me. If some one named god shows up my first reaction will be "What do you want?" I'm not gonna be gettin in the ground kissin the dirt. (if the god of the Bible is real, he will have to send himself to Hell for his atrocious behavior)


As I said before, it doesn't matter to me whether or not there is a Creator. It's not going to change what time I get up to go to work tommorrow. It doesn't get me a bigger pay check to know with 100% certainty that the earth is less than 10,000 years old or to know the universe is 17 billion years old. - Maybe Drew thinks the existence of a Creator is proof that a god exists, but I don't. You can't make the argument a Creator existed => god exists without filling in the details

If the neighbor (or hid mutt) takes a dump in your yard, you toss it back over the fence at night.  No non-Euclidian geometry involved.

Regarding "all I can say for sure is that god doesn't give a rat's ass about any of us." that assumes a deity and I don't.

The last time the police showed up here, it was the regular domestic screaming match across the street.  I was standing in my driveway and the policeperson said to go inside.  I said "no, its my yard and I will stand out here and watch the fun..."

Then I learned they thought I was part of the screaming.  No, it was 2 houses down the street.  I WAS shining a flashlight at them to be a witness if one attacked the other.  And one had.  Took the family baby and tried to drive away in the car.  While the other stood in front of it and got bumped and bumped and bumped before standing off when the cops came.

My offerred witness status got they case settled out of court and both thrown out of the rental house.  Peace as reigned ever since.

Rumor says they are both in jail for various crimes.  But "gone" is fine with the neighborhood.

Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

SGOS

Quote from: Baruch on September 10, 2017, 03:48:05 PM
Theologians think and reason too ... and fail just the same.
Quote from: Unbeliever on September 10, 2017, 10:08:07 PM
Theologians aren't peer-reviewed.
They don't think and reason either.  Oh, I suppose you can think and wonder about why God loves you so much, just like I think and wonder why Angelina Jolie keeps stalking me all the time.

The point is that not all thinking and reasoning is equal.  This is Drew's obsession.  He wants to put religion and science on equal footing.  It's a tall order which no one could ever achieve, least of all, Drew.  From what I can tell, he has made it his mission.

Cavebear

Quote from: SGOS on September 11, 2017, 08:14:03 AM
They don't think and reason either.  Oh, I suppose you can think and wonder about why God loves you so much, just like I think and wonder why Angelina Jolie keeps stalking me all the time.

The point is that not all thinking and reasoning is equal.  This is Drew's obsession.  He wants to put religion and science on equal footing.  It's a tall order which no one could ever achieve, least of all, Drew.  From what I can tell, he has made it his mission.

Outstanding!  THINKING and thinking are not the same.  Any idiot can have a thought, but actually "THINKING" is a bit different. 
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Drew_2017

Quote from: Mike Cl on September 10, 2017, 03:45:20 PM
One hallmark of a theist is that they may be able to read--just can't understand what they read.

You've been told time and again--atheists don't 'believe', they think and reason.  I know that is foreign to you.

The word you're looking for isn't foreign...its bullshit.

Reason and evidence leads one to a tentative conclusion. A tentative conclusion about something...anything is a belief. Why does that scare you? I believe (don't know for sure) very small things called atoms exist. I believe also that scientists tell me the truth of what they believe is true.  We have beliefs about everything without knowing for sure. Every time you sit your ass in a chair you believe (with good reason) it will support you. But you don't know for sure. Its a minor act of faith not a major one.

Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.
Albert Einstein

https://www.dropbox.com/s/jex6k2uvf9aljrq/theism.rtf?dl=0

Drew_2017

Quote from: Mike Cl on September 10, 2017, 06:43:27 PM
Of course I see that.  I would say the biggest block theists have is simply not knowing.  "I don't know.' , is hard for many to say or think.  It is so much more satisfying to buy into goddidit rather than say 'I don't know'.  Personally, I don't have a problem say that or feeling that.  I don't know more than I know.  Once a person buys into the theist way of looking at the universe with all the holes filled in (with goddidit), things are much easier to deal with.  And don't then, try and reason them out of that posture.  It won't work, because they don't want it to.  Reason means nothing.  Belief and faith are all that matters. 

Mike didn't you say you're 100 or 99% sure we don't owe our existence to a Creator? Why don't you admit you don't know but believe that to be so? Oh I know the word believe scares you...
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.
Albert Einstein

https://www.dropbox.com/s/jex6k2uvf9aljrq/theism.rtf?dl=0

Unbeliever

Thinking is HARD! And a HARD man is good to find!

Here's a man thinking really HARD!


God Not Found
"There is a sucker born-again every minute." - C. Spellman

Cavebear

Quote from: Drew_2017 on September 11, 2017, 03:52:18 PM
The word you're looking for isn't foreign...its bullshit.

Reason and evidence leads one to a tentative conclusion. A tentative conclusion about something...anything is a belief. Why does that scare you? I believe (don't know for sure) very small things called atoms exist. I believe also that scientists tell me the truth of what they believe is true.  We have beliefs about everything without knowing for sure. Every time you sit your ass in a chair you believe (with good reason) it will support you. But you don't know for sure. Its a minor act of faith not a major one.

Ah Drew, you poor soul.  Not every thought is a belief.  I get that from theists all the time.  I don't "believe" that pi is the circumference of a circle.  I don't "believe" F=MA.  There are facts in the world.  And the existence of a deity or actual belief is not among them.  MOO!
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Drew_2017

Quote from: Blackleaf on September 11, 2017, 01:04:30 AM
The natural is a part of our every day experiences. The supernatural is not. If you want to claim that the natural doesn't really exist, good luck with that. But I'm not going to let you off the hook for trying to switch the burden of proof or redefine the definition of belief to suit your needs.

Excellent non-response.
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.
Albert Einstein

https://www.dropbox.com/s/jex6k2uvf9aljrq/theism.rtf?dl=0