Author Topic: Atheism Poll  (Read 4274 times)

Offline Baruch

Re: Atheism Poll
« Reply #135 on: September 13, 2017, 10:40:20 PM »
The supernatural is all that exists.  What differs between us is labeling, and you think that what exists has no order, no life and no consciousness ... aka chaotic materialism.  Sort of fundamentalist anarchism.
שלום

Re: Atheism Poll
« Reply #136 on: September 13, 2017, 10:45:29 PM »
The supernatural is all that exists.  What differs between us is labeling, and you think that what exists has no order, no life and no consciousness ... aka chaotic materialism.  Sort of fundamentalist anarchism.
The name 'supernatural' tells us that it does not exist.  And I would agree that much of what differs between us is labeling.  But when you say--you think that what exists has no order, no life and no consciousness ... aka chaotic materialism.  Sort of fundamentalist anarchism.--you are making stuff up again.  I would say that everything has order.  What is alive and what is not is difficult to tell--can you show me a detailed definition of 'alive'?  There is a slippery line between animate and inanimate.  And I am about as far from anarchy as one can get.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Offline trdsf

Re: Atheism Poll
« Reply #137 on: September 13, 2017, 11:43:01 PM »
I basically agree with this except I don't see how the narrow properties of the universe are factual reasons to believe in a creator god.  I don't even know what the narrow properties of the universe are.  I know that you have proposed them for the purpose of laying ground rules for a discussion, but I don't see the discussion as relevant.  You have defined the creator as God.  If the universe was created from nothing, I guess you could say a creator force was involved, but why would it be a god?
And we don't know that the properties really are narrow anyway.  They appear tuned to allow us, but that's only because we're looking at it from our end of things.  The properties of the universe only allow us to be.  We're not inherent in them.

The fallacy is that we as a species are implicit in the universe, when the fact is that we're only possible, not necessary.  It's like Douglas Adams' parable of the sentient puddle, that marvels at how the hole it's in happens to fit it so very precisely.  We fit the universe; the universe doesn't fit us.

And really, the vast majority of the universe very much doesn't fit us -- without external support mechanisms, we can only live on part of the minority of dry bits of only one small planet.

We don't know how many stable configurations there are that can result in a long-lived universe in which the laws of physics and chemistry permit biological evolution.  There might be only this one.  There might be uncountable billions.

Had the properties of the universe been otherwise, surely some of whatever evolved out of those rules would be marveling at how that universe appeared designed just for them.  Had the properties been exactly the same and we didn't happen to evolve, the universe would still be here without us.

The only thing we can infer from the fact that our species exists in this universe is that this is a universe in which we can exist.  It may not be the only universe in which we could exist -- nor the only kind of universe that can host sentient life, even if our species can't exist in those.
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning." -- Calvin and Hobbes
"I thought I committed regicide today, but I committed deicide!" -- Sadie Doyle, Beyond Belief

Offline Cavebear

Re: Atheism Poll
« Reply #138 on: September 14, 2017, 01:27:26 AM »
Yeah. We might have had a normal President who doesn't habitually break the law, show absolutely zero competence at the job, or surround themselves with even more incompetent people. We sure dodged a bullet there.

I imagine the US with Hillary as President.  International respect, sensible regulations of rapacious business, some improved environmental controls (not tumbling mountaintops into local streams, fracking earthquakes, and wildly uncertain herbicides released in the wildlife), rational international sanctions on N Korea, China, and Russia,

Etc.

Etc.

Etc.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!  b 1950

Re: Atheism Poll
« Reply #139 on: September 14, 2017, 09:39:30 AM »
The supernatural is all that exists.  What differs between us is labeling, and you think that what exists has no order, no life and no consciousness ... aka chaotic materialism.  Sort of fundamentalist anarchism.

If the supernatural is all that exists, then it is not supernatural. By definition, supernatural means "beyond nature." What you're describing sounds more like a personification of nature.
"Birds born in a cage think flying is an illness." - Alejandro Jodorowsky

Offline Cavebear

Re: Atheism Poll
« Reply #140 on: September 14, 2017, 10:31:16 AM »
The supernatural is all that exists.  What differs between us is labeling, and you think that what exists has no order, no life and no consciousness ... aka chaotic materialism.  Sort of fundamentalist anarchism.

The supernatural is what doesn't exist  You exist, I exist. Plankton exist.   Every living creature exists.  None of us are supernatural.  There is nothing supernatural that has EVER been shown to exist.  Show me actual evidence of anything supernatural, and I will throw you a bone...
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!  b 1950

Offline Baruch

Re: Atheism Poll
« Reply #141 on: September 14, 2017, 01:11:40 PM »
If the supernatural is all that exists, then it is not supernatural. By definition, supernatural means "beyond nature." What you're describing sounds more like a personification of nature.

That is like a theist defining atheism (but don't take that negative, just as an example).  Supernatural didn't exist as a word, until the naturalists (atheists) created it.  But like Shaker and Quaker and Christian ... it was taken up by the targets who were being disparaged.  In Hinduism, there is no word for religion.  Originally it had no word for theism, until Charvaka and Atheist Vedanta were invented.  It simply is how people lived.  It was sociopaths who created atheism ... and naturalism.  Such autistic folks do serve as trail blazers for the majority however.  And to label the majority as "other" they came up with a slur ... supernatural, and made an opposite word, natural to sound like a good thing (which it isn't).

If everyone is average, then people don't exist?  As a theist I don't concede anything to atheist Newspeak, even if it is 2500 years old.
שלום

Offline SGOS

Re: Atheism Poll
« Reply #142 on: September 14, 2017, 01:40:26 PM »
That is like a theist defining atheism (but don't take that negative, just as an example).  Supernatural didn't exist as a word, until the naturalists (atheists) created it.  But like Shaker and Quaker and Christian ... it was taken up by the targets who were being disparaged.
I'm going to set my skepticism aside and say outright that I don't believe that.  But I don't have a theistic philosophy, so some credible documentation could change my opinion.

Offline Baruch

Re: Atheism Poll
« Reply #143 on: September 14, 2017, 01:50:02 PM »
I'm going to set my skepticism aside and say outright that I don't believe that.  But I don't have a theistic philosophy, so some credible documentation could change my opinion.

OK.  It is still legal to have an opinion.  But that doesn't change facts.  Research the history of secularism, including the word salad ... and you might come up with cole slaw ;-)  Like I told Cavebear ... and as often a theist troll is told ... I won't do your research.  It isn't important enough for me to spend the rest of my short remaining lifetime on it.  I am not saying secularism is wrong .. it is just another Weltanschaung however.  It is useful for moving the theistic status quo off dead center.
שלום

Offline SGOS

Re: Atheism Poll
« Reply #144 on: September 14, 2017, 01:57:40 PM »
Like I told Cavebear ... and as often a theist troll is told ... I won't do your research.
Fair enough.  I'll just keep on not believing it, because I don't give a big enough shit to research it either.

Offline Cavebear

Re: Atheism Poll
« Reply #145 on: September 14, 2017, 02:01:06 PM »
That is like a theist defining atheism (but don't take that negative, just as an example).  Supernatural didn't exist as a word, until the naturalists (atheists) created it.  But like Shaker and Quaker and Christian ... it was taken up by the targets who were being disparaged.  In Hinduism, there is no word for religion.  Originally it had no word for theism, until Charvaka and Atheist Vedanta were invented.  It simply is how people lived.  It was sociopaths who created atheism ... and naturalism.  Such autistic folks do serve as trail blazers for the majority however.  And to label the majority as "other" they came up with a slur ... supernatural, and made an opposite word, natural to sound like a good thing (which it isn't).

If everyone is average, then people don't exist?  As a theist I don't concede anything to atheist Newspeak, even if it is 2500 years old.

Aside from most of the nonsense, why "2500 years"?  That means something to you, doesn't it?
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!  b 1950

Re: Atheism Poll
« Reply #146 on: September 14, 2017, 02:37:48 PM »
If humans know no answers, why do you claim to have some?

We serve no opinion before its time - Bartles & James
When did I ever claim to have answers? All I've got are questions, and working hypotheses.
God Not Found
“Money supplants skill; it's possession allows us to become happily stupid.”
Bill McKibben, The Age of Missing Information

Offline Drew_2017 (OP)

Re: Atheism Poll
« Reply #147 on: September 14, 2017, 02:42:39 PM »
And we don't know that the properties really are narrow anyway.  They appear tuned to allow us, but that's only because we're looking at it from our end of things.  The properties of the universe only allow us to be.  We're not inherent in them.

And this claim is true because of the following facts....?

Quote
The fallacy is that we as a species are implicit in the universe, when the fact is that we're only possible, not necessary.  It's like Douglas Adams' parable of the sentient puddle, that marvels at how the hole it's in happens to fit it so very precisely.  We fit the universe; the universe doesn't fit us.

Fallacy...a mistaken belief, especially one based on unsound argument. The basis for claiming this is a fallacy is the assumption your world view is correct. Until we find other living things that adapted to conditions much different than earth ours is the only life we know of and looking at our own solar system the other planets don't support life. Secondly we don't know the conditions that allow life to start in the first place. I'd say at best its unknown to say whether we fit the universe or it fits us.

Quote
We don't know how many stable configurations there are that can result in a long-lived universe in which the laws of physics and chemistry permit biological evolution.  There might be only this one.  There might be uncountable billions.

I agree so its a moot point.

Quote
Had the properties of the universe been otherwise, surely some of whatever evolved out of those rules would be marveling at how that universe appeared designed just for them.  Had the properties been exactly the same and we didn't happen to evolve, the universe would still be here without us.

You are projecting your world view assumption that the universe came about unintentionally and that life came about unintentionally to the point that you assume if a universe of different properties arose it too would have life that evolved into sentient life. This is conjecture based on the assumption your world view is correct. The only life we know of factually is life on earth with the properties of the universe we are in. If the day comes we find life in conditions totally hostile to us then you have a basis for conjecture. 

Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.
Albert Einstein

https://www.dropbox.com/s/jex6k2uvf9aljrq/theism.rtf?dl=0

Re: Atheism Poll
« Reply #148 on: September 14, 2017, 02:49:54 PM »
I think the problem here is that theists look at the universe and see the need for a creator, and atheists don't. It's simple, really, just a matter of differing points of view. Some people, for various reasons, just want to have a creator God because it makes them feel safer, somehow, to think that the most powerful possible being cares enough about them to make sure they stay snug and warm inside his loving arms.

But a creator God isn't necessarily a personal loving God anyway. But beliefs are tied more to emotional needs than reasoned fact or practical results.

I wouldn't care what anyone does or does not believe, except that those who can be convinced to believe absurdities can also be persuaded to commit atrocities. We see it every day in the news cycle.
God Not Found
“Money supplants skill; it's possession allows us to become happily stupid.”
Bill McKibben, The Age of Missing Information

Offline trdsf

Re: Atheism Poll
« Reply #149 on: September 14, 2017, 03:22:50 PM »
I think the problem here is that theists look at the universe and see the need for a creator, and atheists don't. It's simple, really, just a matter of differing points of view. Some people, for various reasons, just want to have a creator God because it makes them feel safer, somehow, to think that the most powerful possible being cares enough about them to make sure they stay snug and warm inside his loving arms.
I would turn that around, actually -- they see a god, and they need to make everything be a reason for that god to exist, no matter how much of a non sequitur the claim is.  They're not looking at the universe and deriving a creator, they're looking at a creator first and declaring the universe a 'creation' by fiat.  It's the "But but but... rainbows!  Puppies!  Butterflies!" argument, writ extremely large.
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning." -- Calvin and Hobbes
"I thought I committed regicide today, but I committed deicide!" -- Sadie Doyle, Beyond Belief