Author Topic: Atheism Poll  (Read 4396 times)

Re: Atheism Poll
« Reply #120 on: September 13, 2017, 09:05:22 AM »

Your epistemic argument falls on deaf ears.
That's because his argument falls from a deaf mouth.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Offline Drew_2017 (OP)

Re: Atheism Poll
« Reply #121 on: September 13, 2017, 12:49:26 PM »
Quote
Drew argues that natural forces suffers the same dismal failure as Goddidit.  But does it?.  Drew likes to add his own personal Killer Caveat to what he sees as the universal atheist claim: "Existence is a result of natural forces <add caveat>  ALL THE WAY DOWN!"Whoa!  That makes it sound chilling an ominous as if doom is right around the corner.  It's all the fuckin' way down!

Sorry I gave you such a fright! It just means no deity involved in whatever process caused the existence of the universe all the way down (meaning as far back as events go). It is a mystery to me how the natural forces we're familiar with could cause their own existence but I assume the atheists who are 99% or better certain no Creator was involved must know or they couldn't' possibly be so certain. I just wish they'd share this information and evidence. Instead they say I don't know how the universe came about, when it came about, what forces were involved or if it magically materialized into existence without any cause or why it took on the properties to cause planets, stars and life to exist I just know with nearly 100% certainty no Creator was involved...

Quote
But do all atheists add that caveat?  I don't know how many do, but I know at least one that doesn't.  Me.  We do know natural forces exist.  We have observed and measured many of them, but... Maybe they aren't really natural ALL THE WAY DOWN.  OK maybe not.

So what?

At the very least it means no one can be 99.999 % certain they just say they are.
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.
Albert Einstein

https://www.dropbox.com/s/jex6k2uvf9aljrq/theism.rtf?dl=0

Offline Drew_2017 (OP)

Re: Atheism Poll
« Reply #122 on: September 13, 2017, 01:06:24 PM »
Echo chamber .... not cultish.  Birds of a feather flock together.  And I am "Super Chicken-Little Man".

Your epistemic argument falls on deaf ears.

Part of any cult is an us VS them mentality. The slightest lack of faith in core beliefs results in possible expulsion. If just one of the atheists on this board said okay I understand why the existence of intelligent life and the narrow properties of the universe might give you factual reason to think a Creator was involved but I disagree and believe it will ultimately be explained naturalistically they'd be ridiculed and hounded because they violated the core dogmatic principal of atheism that there isn't one fact that comports with theism. That all theists believe in the existence of God for no reason whatsoever and they might just as well believe in tooth fairies invisible pink elephants and so forth.

« Last Edit: September 13, 2017, 01:09:00 PM by Drew_2017 »
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.
Albert Einstein

https://www.dropbox.com/s/jex6k2uvf9aljrq/theism.rtf?dl=0

Re: Atheism Poll
« Reply #123 on: September 13, 2017, 01:17:00 PM »
Maybe there are places in the universe that could be hiding a supernatural realm. Dark matter could be hiding ghosts and gods, or maybe they're in the tightly rolled up dimensions that strings are thought to vibrate in. Maybe the dark energy is God. Or maybe God is antimatter. Maybe God lives in a parallel universe, and only interacted with this one when he created it.

But I see no reason to "believe" that any of those domains is hiding a deity, or any other supernatural entities.
God Not Found
“Money supplants skill; it's possession allows us to become happily stupid.”
Bill McKibben, The Age of Missing Information

Offline SGOS

Re: Atheism Poll
« Reply #124 on: September 13, 2017, 01:50:10 PM »
If just one of the atheists on this board said okay I understand why the existence of intelligent life and the narrow properties of the universe might give you factual reason to think a Creator was involved but I disagree and believe it will ultimately be explained naturalistically they'd be ridiculed and hounded because they violated the core dogmatic principal of atheism that there isn't one fact that comports with theism.
I basically agree with this except I don't see how the narrow properties of the universe are factual reasons to believe in a creator god.  I don't even know what the narrow properties of the universe are.  I know that you have proposed them for the purpose of laying ground rules for a discussion, but I don't see the discussion as relevant.  You have defined the creator as God.  If the universe was created from nothing, I guess you could say a creator force was involved, but why would it be a god?

For the record, I did not respond to your poll, because it wasn't clear to me.  You framed it around certainty, and then offered choices that were partial certainties, none of which would fit me, because I don't identify a degree of uncertainty upon command.  I am just uncertain.   For those that claim to have 100% certainty, there were no choices at all.  It seemed to be designed to take the 100% claim off the table, proving that no one was certain, and requiring no one to justify that claim.  I just didn't know how to respond to the poll.  Is my lack of certainty more valid than someone else's (your's) lack of certainty?  I don't see how this contributes anything to rational discussion when the evidence is not evident to all.

Offline Baruch

Re: Atheism Poll
« Reply #125 on: September 13, 2017, 02:54:56 PM »
Part of any cult is an us VS them mentality. The slightest lack of faith in core beliefs results in possible expulsion. If just one of the atheists on this board said okay I understand why the existence of intelligent life and the narrow properties of the universe might give you factual reason to think a Creator was involved but I disagree and believe it will ultimately be explained naturalistically they'd be ridiculed and hounded because they violated the core dogmatic principal of atheism that there isn't one fact that comports with theism. That all theists believe in the existence of God for no reason whatsoever and they might just as well believe in tooth fairies invisible pink elephants and so forth.

Yes, that is how meme socialization works.  Usually one is segregating the general population into friendlies and hostiles, so you can offer the poison Kool-aide to the hostiles as a peace offering ;-)  See the settlement in Germany early on between the Catholics and Lutherans.  But people come here because they are self selected ... they weren't in the Big Brother theater to get the "official" atheist message.  In free church  work, people are also self selected.  It is only when the government or theocracy imposes itself, that control goes from optional to mandatory.

I can't intellectually accept creation ex nihilo anyway ... that was invented in the early Middle Ages, when the world was a much smaller place.  It hasn't been tenable since the invention of the telescope.  In modern Hinduism, it can be accepted that there are different gods for every planet ... no need for complete inflation of a divine ego to infinite proportions, as you must with monotheism.  The various heavens of earlier Hinduism have been transposed to various planets in later Hinduism.  For the same reasons, I can't except transubstantiation of the host, as developed in Medieval Catholicism ... it is metaphysically naive compared to modern knowledge.  I don't even think that Zwingli has it right, as a memorial to the Last Supper.

Modern people simply can't understand incarnation of G-d or gods for that matter.  Ancient people had problems with it to, but for different reasons.  Even in ancient times, there was a movement to place gods or G-d as completely other from nature and mankind ... an impact caused by philosophy.  Acceptance of that transcendent metaphysics makes incarnation impossible to understand.  You have to choose immanence ... which made sense in polytheism ... and can make sense in monotheism too.  But you must expel intellectualization .. including theology.  Plato went to Hell, Homer went to Heaven.  Which is why I call myself and all human beings ... demigods.  Go Homer!
שלום

Offline Drew_2017 (OP)

Re: Atheism Poll
« Reply #126 on: September 13, 2017, 03:50:17 PM »
Maybe there are places in the universe that could be hiding a supernatural realm. Dark matter could be hiding ghosts and gods, or maybe they're in the tightly rolled up dimensions that strings are thought to vibrate in. Maybe the dark energy is God. Or maybe God is antimatter. Maybe God lives in a parallel universe, and only interacted with this one when he created it.

But I see no reason to "believe" that any of those domains is hiding a deity, or any other supernatural entities.

Maybe mindless forces without trying or wanting to somehow caused themselves to exist and then without trying or wanting to created a universe with exacting conditions to cause stars, planets, solar systems and then without trying to or wanting to or knowing how to caused something totally unlike itself to exist, life and mind. Though some atheists are over 99% sure no God exists I have yet to hear of some non-god naturalistic model that accounts for what we observe. I guess its a faith proposition that starts with the conclusion a Creator doesn't exist therefore even though we haven't a clue how natural mindless forces did it...they must have. 
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.
Albert Einstein

https://www.dropbox.com/s/jex6k2uvf9aljrq/theism.rtf?dl=0

Re: Atheism Poll
« Reply #127 on: September 13, 2017, 03:55:38 PM »
Just because we don't know the answers to life, the universe and everything doesn't mean we should jump to the conclusion that God did it. You've given us no reasons to believe such a thing. If given good reasons we might be persuaded, but so far asking for evidence we just get crickets.
God Not Found
“Money supplants skill; it's possession allows us to become happily stupid.”
Bill McKibben, The Age of Missing Information

Re: Atheism Poll
« Reply #128 on: September 13, 2017, 05:09:03 PM »
Maybe mindless forces without trying or wanting to somehow caused themselves to exist and then without trying or wanting to created a universe with exacting conditions to cause stars, planets, solar systems and then without trying to or wanting to or knowing how to caused something totally unlike itself to exist, life and mind. Though some atheists are over 99% sure no God exists I have yet to hear of some non-god naturalistic model that accounts for what we observe. I guess its a faith proposition that starts with the conclusion a Creator doesn't exist therefore even though we haven't a clue how natural mindless forces did it...they must have.
....haven't a clue......the only thing you have said that makes any sense.  You are just so blindingly stupid that it is astounding. 
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Offline Baruch

Re: Atheism Poll
« Reply #129 on: September 13, 2017, 06:07:05 PM »
Maybe mindless forces without trying or wanting to somehow caused themselves to exist and then without trying or wanting to created a universe with exacting conditions to cause stars, planets, solar systems and then without trying to or wanting to or knowing how to caused something totally unlike itself to exist, life and mind. Though some atheists are over 99% sure no God exists I have yet to hear of some non-god naturalistic model that accounts for what we observe. I guess its a faith proposition that starts with the conclusion a Creator doesn't exist therefore even though we haven't a clue how natural mindless forces did it...they must have.

It isn't necessarily and endless regression of cause/effect.  Ancients debated if every effect had a cause.  Aristotle concluded that they didn't.  He didn't have a god (being tutor to Alexander though, he knew a demigod when he saw one).  He had an "unmoved mover" as the point of origin, but as logical necessity, not as temporal cause of causes.  For him, nature (he invented biology) was both living, and temporally eternal.  There was no need for an initial creation in time, and in particular, no creation ex nihilo.  This came back to bite his Medieval supporters later, after "ex nihilo" had been established as dogma in all three Abrahamic religions.  Initial philosophers in Abrahamic faiths had been Platonists.   This is why "falasifa" which meant Aristotelian Muslim philosophers in particular, were propagandistically jihaded by the orthodox.  Initially Aristotelians in Christianity, who were taught by Muslims and Jews (who were Aristotelians) were also judged to be heretics ... but in one of the great turn arounds ... Aquinas, the primary Catholic Aristotelian, had is reputation reversed from heretic to doctor of the Church.  Similarly in Judaism, early Jewish philosophers, who were not Aristotelians, were overcome by the reputation of the great Jewish Aristotelian, Maimonides.  The eventual success of Aristotelianism in Western Christianity and Judaism, is what led eventually to modernity.  Aristotle being initially used to overcome earlier Platonic dogma, and was itself overcome by early modern philosophy (Descartes and Galileo).
« Last Edit: September 13, 2017, 06:09:45 PM by Baruch »
שלום

Offline Baruch

Re: Atheism Poll
« Reply #130 on: September 13, 2017, 06:08:03 PM »
Just because we don't know the answers to life, the universe and everything doesn't mean we should jump to the conclusion that God did it. You've given us no reasons to believe such a thing. If given good reasons we might be persuaded, but so far asking for evidence we just get crickets.

If humans know no answers, why do you claim to have some?

We serve no opinion before its time - Bartles & James
« Last Edit: September 13, 2017, 06:10:58 PM by Baruch »
שלום

Offline Drew_2017 (OP)

Re: Atheism Poll
« Reply #131 on: September 13, 2017, 07:28:22 PM »
I basically agree with this except I don't see how the narrow properties of the universe are factual reasons to believe in a creator god.  I don't even know what the narrow properties of the universe are.  I know that you have proposed them for the purpose of laying ground rules for a discussion, but I don't see the discussion as relevant.  You have defined the creator as God.  If the universe was created from nothing, I guess you could say a creator force was involved, but why would it be a god?

The narrow properties of the universe isn't something I made up this is a summary of the six critical values necessary for a universe to be like it is.

All six values featured in this book permit something significant to happen, and to go on happening. Take for instance Q, the one part in 100,000 ratio between the rest mass energy of matter and the force of gravity. Were this ratio a lot smaller, gas would never condense into galaxies. Were it only a bit smaller, star formation would be slow and the raw material for future planets would not survive to form planetary systems. Were it much bigger, stars would collapse swiftly into black holes and the surviving gas would blister the universe with gamma rays.

The measure of nuclear efficiency, ε for epsilon, has a value of 0.007. If it had a value of 0.006 there would be no other elements: hydrogen could not fuse into helium and the stars could not have cooked up carbon, iron, complex chemistry and, ultimately, us. Had it been a smidgen higher, at 0.008, protons would have fused in the big bang, leaving no hydrogen to fuel future stars or deliver the Evian water.


This book was written before dark matter became scientifically accepted as being real. In simulations of galaxies without dark matter galaxies fly apart. The universe itself would look much different there wouldn't be the planet we live on. If your hypothesis is that mindless forces without plan or intent caused the universe and life to exist by chance you'd expect the odds to be far more favorable it would happen by chance. This is why some scientists are proposing this is one of an infinitude of universes with varying characteristics.


Quote
For the record, I did not respond to your poll, because it wasn't clear to me.  You framed it around certainty, and then offered choices that were partial certainties, none of which would fit me, because I don't identify a degree of uncertainty upon command.  I am just uncertain.   For those that claim to have 100% certainty, there were no choices at all.  It seemed to be designed to take the 100% claim off the table, proving that no one was certain, and requiring no one to justify that claim.  I just didn't know how to respond to the poll.  Is my lack of certainty more valid than someone else's (your's) lack of certainty?  I don't see how this contributes anything to rational discussion when the evidence is not evident to all.

I just didn't think for a moment given how little we actually know about how the universe came about anyone would have the hubris to claim they are 100% certain. I don't see how one can be 100% certain of anything least of all something that occurred 13.5 billion years ago.
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.
Albert Einstein

https://www.dropbox.com/s/jex6k2uvf9aljrq/theism.rtf?dl=0

Offline Drew_2017 (OP)

Re: Atheism Poll
« Reply #132 on: September 13, 2017, 07:31:28 PM »
Just because we don't know the answers to life, the universe and everything doesn't mean we should jump to the conclusion that God did it. You've given us no reasons to believe such a thing. If given good reasons we might be persuaded, but so far asking for evidence we just get crickets.

Nor should we jump to the conclusion it was mindless naturalistic forces. I'm not telling anyone what to believe just to fairly consider the possibilities.
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.
Albert Einstein

https://www.dropbox.com/s/jex6k2uvf9aljrq/theism.rtf?dl=0

Offline aitm

Re: Atheism Poll
« Reply #133 on: September 13, 2017, 08:06:55 PM »
I'm not telling anyone what to believe just to fairly consider the possibilities.
and yet you would reject out of hand, Zeus, Odin, Krishna, Satnam, Popeye.....any god your parents told you was false...only..because they told you which god was real. You are no more than your parents puppet. Can you dance? Meh. Not likely, you preach "consider the possibilities" but you adamantly practice the opposite...."oh hypocrite...can thoust seeth thyself in the water? Can thy heareth thy own lies? Stand still and hear the thy truth, thou liest to thyself"
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Re: Atheism Poll
« Reply #134 on: September 13, 2017, 08:41:24 PM »
Nor should we jump to the conclusion it was mindless naturalistic forces. I'm not telling anyone what to believe just to fairly consider the possibilities.

As best as we can tell, the natural is all that exists. No souls, no ghosts, no angels, no demons, and no gods have ever been proven to exist. So it is perfectly reasonable to dismiss the idea that a god created the universe. Now, if your god would like to speak up and make himself plainly known, he's free to do so. Until then, I'm giving the creator story the same amount of credibility as stories of alien abductions.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2017, 08:43:19 PM by Blackleaf »
"Birds born in a cage think flying is an illness." - Alejandro Jodorowsky