Author Topic: Atheism Poll  (Read 1504 times)

Offline Drew_2017 (OP)

Atheism Poll
« on: September 09, 2017, 03:39:24 PM »
From the comments I have seen from the atheists on this board questioning the sanity of theists, bashing theism from pillar to post I'd have to think the majority are 99.9999% sure there is no Creator of the universe with about as much certainty as there is no Santa Claus.
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.
Albert Einstein

Offline Baruch

Re: Atheism Poll
« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2017, 03:49:09 PM »
"Creator" and "creation" are the wrong ontological categories.  And yes, Santa Claus does certainly exist ... as an meme.  But then we have to get into what is "exist" vs "not exist".  Not even philosophers agree on that.  So while a theist, I can't accept conventional theology, I have to be a heretic, or an atheist.  I choose to be a heretic ... because I find atheism (and epiphenomenalism) as implausible as the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
שלום

Offline Mr.Obvious

Re: Atheism Poll
« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2017, 04:18:40 PM »
I am frankly appaled there is no 99.76% option.

No seriously, to put a number on it? What is the point drew?
I am not certain your creator god doesn't exist. I am only certain I've not seen any 'evidence' or even a reason why he should that sways me to be convinced of That claim.
E = Mc²

In the end, we are all standing in the dark,
trying to figure out why we are here.
But let us not choose one direction
without proof of where it is headed.

Check your pocket for matches
so we can observe and learn together
as fast friends and relative idiots.

Offline Drew_2017 (OP)

Re: Atheism Poll
« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2017, 04:39:37 PM »
I am frankly appaled there is no 99.76% option.

No seriously, to put a number on it? What is the point drew?
I am not certain your creator god doesn't exist. I am only certain I've not seen any 'evidence' or even a reason why he should that sways me to be convinced of That claim.

The point is many of the atheists in this forum state atheism as a well established fact not a counter belief to theism. I see facts and evidence of both beliefs as well as reasons to doubt either claim. I'm not convinced we owe our existence to mindless forces that caused themselves, the universe and us to exist all by sheer happenstance. Of course I could be wrong. I'm about 55% sure we owe our existence to a Creator. I've previously stated facts that would change my mind. I might flip and be 55% convinced there is no Creator of the universe.
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.
Albert Einstein

Re: Atheism Poll
« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2017, 05:08:18 PM »
Defining God as Creator of the universe doesn't define what God is, but what he does.
God Not Found
"Never criticize someone unless you've walked a mile in his shoes. Then when you criticize him at least you'll be a mile away - and you'll have his shoes."
Ray Magliozzi
"Time you enjoy wasting is not wasted at all."

Offline Mr.Obvious

Re: Atheism Poll
« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2017, 05:26:34 PM »
The point is many of the atheists in this forum state atheism as a well established fact not a counter belief to theism. I see facts and evidence of both beliefs as well as reasons to doubt either claim. I'm not convinced we owe our existence to mindless forces that caused themselves, the universe and us to exist all by sheer happenstance. Of course I could be wrong. I'm about 55% sure we owe our existence to a Creator. I've previously stated facts that would change my mind. I might flip and be 55% convinced there is no Creator of the universe.

Then why not add a 100% in your poll?
Because you see, I don't know if it's you that has a bias, or me (or maybe both of us) but I think most atheists here would concider themselves 'weak atheists' and not 'strong atheists'. There will be exceptions, of course, but I personally think they are a minorty and few stretches too far to be called 'many'. Now, I could be mistaken. But I've been here for a while now, and I really don't think so.

In any case, putting a number on 'how certain' you are and showing it to you doesn't accomplish anything, then, now does it? If Munch and I say 99.99% and Cavebear says 80% and Shiranu and Unbeliever say 90%, what does that tell you?
You still have the fact that none of them believe the god claim, no matter how strongly they believe to feel about that. And isn't the reason for coming to that conclusion much more interesting and important?
E = Mc²

In the end, we are all standing in the dark,
trying to figure out why we are here.
But let us not choose one direction
without proof of where it is headed.

Check your pocket for matches
so we can observe and learn together
as fast friends and relative idiots.

Offline Drew_2017 (OP)

Re: Atheism Poll
« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2017, 06:00:45 PM »
Then why not add a 100% in your poll?
Because you see, I don't know if it's you that has a bias, or me (or maybe both of us) but I think most atheists here would concider themselves 'weak atheists' and not 'strong atheists'. There will be exceptions, of course, but I personally think they are a minorty and few stretches too far to be called 'many'. Now, I could be mistaken. But I've been here for a while now, and I really don't think so.

In any case, putting a number on 'how certain' you are and showing it to you doesn't accomplish anything, then, now does it? If Munch and I say 99.99% and Cavebear says 80% and Shiranu and Unbeliever say 90%, what does that tell you?
You still have the fact that none of them believe the god claim, no matter how strongly they believe to feel about that. And isn't the reason for coming to that conclusion much more interesting and important?

We all like to be right so naturally we're a bit biased toward whatever we believe. I'm assuming no one can be 100% sure but so far 3 responded and chose 99.9999 which is odd but not unexpected. This is a measure of faith not a reflection of facts and evidence. Whenever I question folks in this board some of whom posted 99% they admit they don't know how the universe came into existence. They don't know if time always existed. They don't know if a singularity existed. They don't know why the laws of physics allow for planets, stars, solar systems and ultimately life to exist. In spite of this lack of knowledge they claim to be 99.9999 % certain no God or god's involved.

I can't tell who answered the poll but suppose you responded 99% but later in a discussion you say I don't claim God doesn't exist I just lack that belief I'd remind you are you're a 99 percenter. I'm a theist yet I'm no where close to 99% certain we owe our existence to a Creator because I don't know with any certainty how the state of affairs we observe came about. Do you?

Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.
Albert Einstein

Offline Mr.Obvious

Re: Atheism Poll
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2017, 06:26:34 PM »
We all like to be right so naturally we're a bit biased toward whatever we believe. I'm assuming no one can be 100% sure but so far 3 responded and chose 99.9999 which is odd but not unexpected. This is a measure of faith not a reflection of facts and evidence. Whenever I question folks in this board some of whom posted 99% they admit they don't know how the universe came into existence. They don't know if time always existed. They don't know if a singularity existed. They don't know why the laws of physics allow for planets, stars, solar systems and ultimately life to exist. In spite of this lack of knowledge they claim to be 99.9999 % certain no God or god's involved.

I can't tell who answered the poll but suppose you responded 99% but later in a discussion you say I don't claim God doesn't exist I just lack that belief I'd remind you are you're a 99 percenter. I'm a theist yet I'm no where close to 99% certain we owe our existence to a Creator because I don't know with any certainty how the state of affairs we observe came about. Do you?

I might feel relatively certain that my neighbour didn't climb into my backyard when I was at work, layed a massive dump, cleaned it back up, taking all the evidence back with him, and went home. I might even subjectively put a number on that; say 99%. (Though the number is arbitrary, useless and void. In truth: Either you are certain of  something or you are not. Any number you stick on in is a subjective and personal interpretation of the validness of whatever you are leaning to, more akin to an emotional, subconscience and uncontroleable point of view rather than an objective marking we can or even try to use as a standardized comparison and justified dispotion based on logic and reason.)
I'm still not going to go around 'claiming' my neighbour definitely didn't shit in my backyard. I'm not even going to claim I have good reason to think he didn't. I'm just not going to have good reason to think he does. And if you, a complete stranger, tell me you are convinced of the supposed events on my grass, I'm going to ask you to prove it. I have no intent in making my life more difficult unless you can show me a good reason.
In the conversation, I might say 'I don't believe you. I know my neighbor. I know he didn't shit in my backyard.' By saying that, I don't litteraly mean I have actual evidence that my neighbor, in fact, didn't use my yard when nature called. Rather, I mean that there is no good reason to think that he did, so I'm not making the assumption that he did.

I'm tired and off to bed. I'll see if I can check in with this thread tomorrow or something.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2017, 06:28:12 PM by Mr.Obvious »
E = Mc²

In the end, we are all standing in the dark,
trying to figure out why we are here.
But let us not choose one direction
without proof of where it is headed.

Check your pocket for matches
so we can observe and learn together
as fast friends and relative idiots.

Re: Atheism Poll
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2017, 06:47:11 PM »
I constantly marvel in awe that things like us can exist in such a universe as we seem to find ourselves in. None of us asked to be here, but here we are. None of us knows how or why, none of us know the rules,  but assuming that "God did it" pretty much puts a stop to further research, since we already know the answer - God did it. So we'll accept an answer that we cannot have confidence in because we have no reliable way to test the hypothesis. So we'll never come to an answer that we can have at least some confidence in. The scientific method isn't the best way to get reliable answers to our most fundamental questions - it's the only way.

And even if there were a creator God, none of us can know anything at all about it. I can guarantee it wasn't the God that's depicted in the Bible - the Judeo/Christian/Islamic God.

So, if you think there is/was/might-have-been/maybe such a creator God, tell us a bit about it - what is it like, how can you know anything at all about it? Does it communicate with humans? Does it wish to be worshiped? Can it cure my ignorance?

And if we can't know anything at all about it - what good is it?

Inquiring minds want to know.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2017, 06:51:04 PM by Unbeliever »
God Not Found
"Never criticize someone unless you've walked a mile in his shoes. Then when you criticize him at least you'll be a mile away - and you'll have his shoes."
Ray Magliozzi
"Time you enjoy wasting is not wasted at all."

Re: Atheism Poll
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2017, 07:35:26 PM »
Which god? Just any god in general? If you give me a specific god, I'll tell you how likely I personally think it is that they exist. Zeus? As close to 0% as I can reasonably get. The Biblical gods? 0.5%. Some vaguely defined monotheist god? Maybe 10%. If the world around us is anything to go by, though, he's most likely not a benevolent one and not worthy of worship.
"Birds born in a cage think flying is an illness." - Alejandro Jodorowsky

Online aitm

Re: Atheism Poll
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2017, 08:32:42 PM »
I am 100% that there is no "god" as defined as the creator of the universe. Being said "god" is also by common definition of every known religion also having interest in human affairs and also determines human affairs and also demands or request to some measure a degree of supplication from its "subjects."

So the common definition of god is nonsensical blabber and whether there is a creator of the universe of not is not part of the equation as any definition of god requires certain elements that eliminates the possibility of the accidental creator or the ambivalent one which I have no problem with until someone thinks it demands humans pay some type of homage.
A humans desire to live is exceeded only by their willingness to die for another. Even god cannot equal this magnificent sacrifice. No god has the right to judge them.-first tenant of the Panotheust

Re: Atheism Poll
« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2017, 08:47:35 PM »
100% certain there are no god(s).
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Online Shiranu

Re: Atheism Poll
« Reply #12 on: September 09, 2017, 09:00:26 PM »
I don't believe in 100% certainty of no god-like deities existing, that simply is not a statement we can make as humans, but I am 100% that the gods as we know them are non-existent, particularly the Abrahamic trio. I think if anything comes remotely close, it would be the Shinto animism or Buddhist "god-but-not-really" (or even the Hindu concept of Brahmin)... both of which are more states of mind and interpreting the universe rather than concrete beings like Yahweh, Allah, God.

Of course, if I had a choice... probably the Zoroastrian faith would be in my top 3 wanting to be real. The focus on good vs evil, of the Fravashi who act as guardian angels and absorb the good energy of the good deeds we do to fight evil in the supernatural realm, and to transfer that good energy from our soul to the next souls born 4 days after our death so that they can continue the fight against evil... how can you not love that? It turns being good into a divine act of fighting evil of an unfathomable scale, yet every the most smallest act of kindness being important in this war against evil... it is, in my opinion, perhaps one of the most beautiful ideologies ever invented in human history.

It's far more beautiful than Christianities' obsession with saving ourselves, anyways.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2017, 09:06:44 PM by Shiranu »
"No one is born hating another person because of the color of his skin or his background or his religion..." - Nelson Mandela

"Too much sanity may be madness and the maddest of all, to see life as it is and not as it should be." - Miguel de Cervantes

Re: Atheism Poll
« Reply #13 on: September 09, 2017, 10:04:58 PM »
Of course, if I had a choice... probably the Zoroastrian faith would be in my top 3 wanting to be real. The focus on good vs evil, of the Fravashi who act as guardian angels and absorb the good energy of the good deeds we do to fight evil in the supernatural realm, and to transfer that good energy from our soul to the next souls born 4 days after our death so that they can continue the fight against evil... how can you not love that? It turns being good into a divine act of fighting evil of an unfathomable scale, yet every the most smallest act of kindness being important in this war against evil... it is, in my opinion, perhaps one of the most beautiful ideologies ever invented in human history.
If I had a choice, I would go with something extremely similar to the Cult Mechanicus.  This bizarre Martian cult literally worships knowledge and views machines positively as more efficient vessels of knowledge.  The cult treats machines as if they were living entities whose needs must be tended rather than inert matter.  The faithful try to discover and gather every scrap of knowledge they possibly can, seeking to better themselves and become more like the Machine God.

That or the Drowned God religion.  Just a whole lot less violent.  I would definitely nix the whole baptism-by-drowning thing.  (It's only a temporary drowning...usually)  But yeah, some kind of Norse-ish religion centered around the sea/water would be great.

I'm also open to pagan/animistic practices.  The natural world as spiritual entities with wills of their own to be entreated and respected.  Quite a fascinating concept.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2017, 10:41:55 PM by Hydra009 »

Offline Drew_2017 (OP)

Re: Atheism Poll
« Reply #14 on: September 09, 2017, 10:08:03 PM »
I might feel relatively certain that my neighbour didn't climb into my backyard when I was at work, layed a massive dump, cleaned it back up, taking all the evidence back with him, and went home. I might even subjectively put a number on that; say 99%. (Though the number is arbitrary, useless and void. In truth: Either you are certain of  something or you are not. Any number you stick on in is a subjective and personal interpretation of the validness of whatever you are leaning to, more akin to an emotional, subconscience and uncontroleable point of view rather than an objective marking we can or even try to use as a standardized comparison and justified dispotion based on logic and reason.)
I'm still not going to go around 'claiming' my neighbour definitely didn't shit in my backyard. I'm not even going to claim I have good reason to think he didn't. I'm just not going to have good reason to think he does. And if you, a complete stranger, tell me you are convinced of the supposed events on my grass, I'm going to ask you to prove it. I have no intent in making my life more difficult unless you can show me a good reason.
In the conversation, I might say 'I don't believe you. I know my neighbor. I know he didn't shit in my backyard.' By saying that, I don't litteraly mean I have actual evidence that my neighbor, in fact, didn't use my yard when nature called. Rather, I mean that there is no good reason to think that he did, so I'm not making the assumption that he did.

I'm tired and off to bed. I'll see if I can check in with this thread tomorrow or something.

Judging from your disgusting analogy I don't think you're remotely interested in a genuine dialog. I know the favorite hobby horse of atheists is there is no evidence of a Creator (according to atheists of course). There is a thread in here called Goddidit VS Naturedidit you can read all about the case in favor of theism not that it will make any difference.

Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.
Albert Einstein