Author Topic: Economics, turbulence, chaos and the failure of planned economies  (Read 128 times)

Offline Baruch (OP)

Economics, turbulence, chaos and the failure of planned economies
« on: September 08, 2017, 10:29:12 PM »


The initial scene isn't the former Soviet Union, but Detroit.  The markets are manipulated, they aren't free (and there is no free lunch), because they exist in a political context.  In planned economies, you are actually making things worse by intervening, depending on how you intervene.  But no government can allow a free market, because it needs to control the outcome, for national security.  Corporations can't allow the government to unilaterally control the economy, so they have to control the government.  The Soviet Union and the USA both had to control their own economies, and attempt to control the world economy as a whole, as part of economic warfare during the Cold War.  The Soviet Union fell to the turbulence added to by their own central planning.  But the USA was centrally planned too, but the centralization was managed differently.  This attempt to control the domestic economy and the world economy continues with the BRICS vs NATO.  The future of the US is Detroit now.  The idea that the new Chinese hybrid economy can defy chaotic mathematics is laughable.  It may be the worst of both worlds, Soviet Union and USA.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2017, 10:33:28 PM by Baruch »
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Offline Cavebear

Re: Economics, turbulence, chaos and the failure of planned economies
« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2017, 05:22:57 AM »


The initial scene isn't the former Soviet Union, but Detroit.  The markets are manipulated, they aren't free (and there is no free lunch), because they exist in a political context.  In planned economies, you are actually making things worse by intervening, depending on how you intervene.  But no government can allow a free market, because it needs to control the outcome, for national security.  Corporations can't allow the government to unilaterally control the economy, so they have to control the government.  The Soviet Union and the USA both had to control their own economies, and attempt to control the world economy as a whole, as part of economic warfare during the Cold War.  The Soviet Union fell to the turbulence added to by their own central planning.  But the USA was centrally planned too, but the centralization was managed differently.  This attempt to control the domestic economy and the world economy continues with the BRICS vs NATO.  The future of the US is Detroit now.  The idea that the new Chinese hybrid economy can defy chaotic mathematics is laughable.  It may be the worst of both worlds, Soviet Union and USA.

You are actually more crazy than I thought.  The US future is in the tech States, California and Massachusetts, et al.  Russia (not the Soviet Union) is merely a  mafiiosa oligarchy lead by Putin.  China is a 
Third World dictatorship dedicated to copying/stealing the tech of other nations having little creative ability because of communism.  When that gets stopped, China will collapse.
 
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline Sal1981

Re: Economics, turbulence, chaos and the failure of planned economies
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2017, 06:43:51 AM »
Regulations of the markets are necessary, because of consumer protection. Same way unions are necessary because of worker protection against exploitation.
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool" --- Richard P. Feynman

Offline Cavebear

Re: Economics, turbulence, chaos and the failure of planned economies
« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2017, 06:48:11 AM »
Regulations of the markets are necessary, because of consumer protection. Same way unions are necessary because of worker protection against exploitation.

Preaching to the choir here, so to speak...  I agree.  Businesses are rapacious by nature and need to be controlled.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline Sal1981

Re: Economics, turbulence, chaos and the failure of planned economies
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2017, 06:59:56 AM »
There used to be a member here at AF who advocated for absolute free market, no regulations at all, and made the argument that markets would regulate themselves or some such.

Given human nature, that's unlikely to happen and I bet it would result into "jungle laws" of only the most brutal and unforgiving practices would win out.
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool" --- Richard P. Feynman

Offline Cavebear

Re: Economics, turbulence, chaos and the failure of planned economies
« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2017, 09:03:11 AM »
There used to be a member here at AF who advocated for absolute free market, no regulations at all, and made the argument that markets would regulate themselves or some such.

Given human nature, that's unlikely to happen and I bet it would result into "jungle laws" of only the most brutal and unforgiving practices would win out.

The idea of trusting industries regulating their practices is like telling hyenas to eat vegetables.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline Baruch (OP)

Re: Economics, turbulence, chaos and the failure of planned economies
« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2017, 12:33:56 AM »
There used to be a member here at AF who advocated for absolute free market, no regulations at all, and made the argument that markets would regulate themselves or some such.

Given human nature, that's unlikely to happen and I bet it would result into "jungle laws" of only the most brutal and unforgiving practices would win out.

Society evolved without any laws to begin with.  Just petty and organized crime.  The largest organized crime group we call a government.  Not that I mind that, I prefer to work for the biggest Mob, not for small fry.  And yes, the most brutal and unforgiving practices did win out ... but not without competition.  The only social contract, is the one you purchase to liquidate your neighbor, if you are so inclined.  Discriminating Mob consumers patronize Jewish mobsters .. Murder Incorporated of Detroit.
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Offline Cavebear

Re: Economics, turbulence, chaos and the failure of planned economies
« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2017, 04:52:38 AM »
Society evolved without any laws to begin with.  Just petty and organized crime.  The largest organized crime group we call a government.  Not that I mind that, I prefer to work for the biggest Mob, not for small fry.  And yes, the most brutal and unforgiving practices did win out ... but not without competition.  The only social contract, is the one you purchase to liquidate your neighbor, if you are so inclined.  Discriminating Mob consumers patronize Jewish mobsters .. Murder Incorporated of Detroit.

You got that SO WRONG!  From the earliest times and the smallest societies, laws were what kept groups together and functioning.  Instead of hoarding by mafiosa-like leaders, groups survived by sharing.  They can't have survived in any other way.

You catch a deer one day and not for another week.  But another of the tribe catches a few rabbits when you are hungry.  If you don't share, you each starve (at different times). 

So you share and you make laws about it.  Its nearly communistic, but "commune" in the sense you share or die.

The laws of the group say everyone tries their best to toss food into the pot.  And if you aren't willing to do that, you wake up some morning to find they have all left you behind. 

Now, let's say one day you all speak together and actually state the rules.  That is the first law.

Then when some day in the future when your laws work well, SOME FRICKING IDIOT declares that the laws were actually created by some sky-guy, and he is the keeper of those laws.

You were all doing fine before he said that, but some of you wonder and say OK, let's give Halfass over there some food just to be sure.  And the next thing you know, Halfass is fat and happy and the rest of you are working harder to get food basecause Halfass isn't hunting anymore.  Just walking around, clapping you all on the head and saying you are pleasing the sky-guy.

And you are mostly getting along, though it is a bit harder, but you created better hunting tools and methods to make up for Halfass not hunting. 

Not knowing you would have been MUCH better off if you had just tossed Halfass off the cliff and kept your good in the smaller group!

And HERE we are today.  A whole TRIBE of Halfasses, parasites from beginning to end, replicating themselves on the tribes food and making evermore complicated rituals and other nonsense to scare everyone into feeding them for walking around and making up chants and rituals. 



Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline Baruch (OP)

Re: Economics, turbulence, chaos and the failure of planned economies
« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2017, 07:18:07 AM »
Social contract theory ... aka Rousseau.  Are you still trying to overturn the French monarchy, and establish the Rule of Reason?

Don't mean to trigger you, but I have to say the truth, even though I support the government.  Even though you took the blue pill and I took the red pill.

People have never gotten together in a Parisian salon, to politely and intellectually resolve issues.  Madame Defarge.  Power is established thru violence.
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Offline Baruch (OP)

Re: Economics, turbulence, chaos and the failure of planned economies
« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2017, 07:21:15 AM »


Restoring video ... thanks Goolag ;-(

As far as the two coast go .. they have fallen into corruption, and control by the Chinese.  China is the future, not Silicon Valley or Boston/NC.  You are so 1990s ... that time has already passed.
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Offline Cavebear

Re: Economics, turbulence, chaos and the failure of planned economies
« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2017, 08:37:21 AM »
Social contract theory ... aka Rousseau.  Are you still trying to overturn the French monarchy, and establish the Rule of Reason?

Don't mean to trigger you, but I have to say the truth, even though I support the government.  Even though you took the blue pill and I took the red pill.

People have never gotten together in a Parisian salon, to politely and intellectually resolve issues.  Madame Defarge.  Power is established thru violence.

You sure have a non-reality view of the world...
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline Baruch (OP)

Re: Economics, turbulence, chaos and the failure of planned economies
« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2017, 08:25:44 PM »
You sure have a non-reality view of the world...

I have rejected the Matrix.  Anyone's damn Matrix.  But I can't fly around in this meme storm like Neo.  Too bad.  What is common sense?  The sum of all the falsehoods you have learned before age 20.  Einstein said that.  Your reality is based on your upbringing in a particular place and time.  Different place, different time, and you would be living a very different reality ... equally fake.  Advertising rules.
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Offline Cavebear

Re: Economics, turbulence, chaos and the failure of planned economies
« Reply #12 on: September 19, 2017, 06:26:30 AM »
I have rejected the Matrix.  Anyone's damn Matrix.  But I can't fly around in this meme storm like Neo.  Too bad.  What is common sense?  The sum of all the falsehoods you have learned before age 20.  Einstein said that.  Your reality is based on your upbringing in a particular place and time.  Different place, different time, and you would be living a very different reality ... equally fake.  Advertising rules.

I'm sorry to read that you stopped learning at 20.  Common sense tends to come after that age.

Of course living where you live matters.  If I was born in Ethiopia, I would probably be dead now, as would you and most of us.  And had we both lived in 8th century Europe, we both also would have died young.  But I wasn't, you weren't, and we are here.

You sure love to make arguments with no actual point!

And so far as "advertising rules", it doesn't for me.  I pay no attention to that crap unless to see the games they are playing in them.  I see right through them.

Bet you want to say I don't.  LOL!
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline Baruch (OP)

Re: Economics, turbulence, chaos and the failure of planned economies
« Reply #13 on: September 19, 2017, 10:29:57 PM »
Being a good government employee, it was necessary to believe everything your employer said.  I still pay attention, even if I don't believe it anymore.  If I had just been more sociopathic in my youth, at least I wouldn't have ended up so disappointed by the reality.  But I was pretty gullible.

Wisdom comes after 20, and like the Ancient Mariner ... it isn't any fun.
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Offline Cavebear

Re: Economics, turbulence, chaos and the failure of planned economies
« Reply #14 on: September 23, 2017, 04:23:10 AM »
Being a good government employee, it was necessary to believe everything your employer said.  I still pay attention, even if I don't believe it anymore.  If I had just been more sociopathic in my youth, at least I wouldn't have ended up so disappointed by the reality.  But I was pretty gullible.

Wisdom comes after 20, and like the Ancient Mariner ... it isn't any fun.

I went into Govt after some right wingnut said at a campus demonstration "If you disagree with the Govt so much, get in there and change it".

I did, and I did.  Saved it a ton of money, got some programs straightened out, told truth to power (utterly shocked the agency CFO and his staff once), and left honorably after 30 years.

I shot the albatross once and leave it to younger mariners now...
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!