Author Topic: What date do you estimate atheism will overtake theism in the world population  (Read 1492 times)

Offline Hijiri Byakuren

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It's never gonna happen.

Now, religion is something I could see dying out. There is a very definite shift towards a form of non-religious theism in educated parts of the world, with people believing in a god yet also generally trusting science over scripture. That could definitely become the norm within my lifetime.

Offline Drew_2017

It's never gonna happen.

Now, religion is something I could see dying out. There is a very definite shift towards a form of non-religious theism in educated parts of the world, with people believing in a god yet also generally trusting science over scripture. That could definitely become the norm within my lifetime.

The reason most beliefs are discarded is when facts and data call into question the veracity of a claim. There isn't as yet a better explanation rooted in facts and data that accounts for our existence and the existence of the universe. The belief God created the universe and life is a belief just as the belief mindless mechanistic forces minus plan or intent caused the universe and life to exist is a belief. 
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.
Albert Einstein

https://www.dropbox.com/s/jex6k2uvf9aljrq/theism.rtf?dl=0

Offline Munch

never gonna happen, theres to many stupid people in the world now.

The reason most beliefs are discarded is when facts and data call into question the veracity of a claim. There isn't as yet a better explanation rooted in facts and data that accounts for our existence and the existence of the universe. The belief God created the universe and life is a belief just as the belief mindless mechanistic forces minus plan or intent caused the universe and life to exist is a belief.

Either the universe came from nothing or the universe and a god came from nothing. One explanation requires a few more assumptions than the other.
"Birds born in a cage think flying is an illness." - Alejandro Jodorowsky

Online Baruch

The reason most beliefs are discarded is when facts and data call into question the veracity of a claim. There isn't as yet a better explanation rooted in facts and data that accounts for our existence and the existence of the universe. The belief God created the universe and life is a belief just as the belief mindless mechanistic forces minus plan or intent caused the universe and life to exist is a belief.

For the average person, all they have is belief in one or other authority.  They have no personal knowledge of anything.  So it isn't even belief in some concept, it is always belief in some parental substitute.
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Offline Coveny (OP)

Either the universe came from nothing or the universe and a god came from nothing. One explanation requires a few more assumptions than the other.

Well put sir, well put. This fact escapes theists though.
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Offline SGOS

The old saw I heard in Sunday school was that God didn't come from anything.  He was always there.  Unlike the universe which had to come from something, because everything must come from something, except God.  No wonder he created the universe, along with time.  He must have gotten really bored in the uber infinity before time.  Nothing could happen without time.  Imagine just sitting there.  Imagine trying to have an idea without time.  Then poof a universe from nothing.  It must have startled God, who decided he would make little tiny humans and put them in this huge universe.  Little tiny humans that would do bad things that God didn't like.  What a good idea!

I always think of the Millerites when I think theists have a chance to think critically or with reason.  These are the Millerites:

"Millerites were disciples of William Miller. Miller, a farmer from New York, claimed to have discovered when Jesus Christ would return to Earth as stated in the Bible. Miller reached this belief in the 1820s but did not begin to share it with other people until the 1830s. By the early 1840s, approximately one million people had attended camp meetings and heard Miller's message. Perhaps ten percent of those people actually believed Miller.

Miller predicted that Christ's second coming would occur in April 1843 and that all worthy people would ascend to heaven on October 23, 1844. Thousands of people across the United States, including in Ohio, eagerly anticipated the event. Numerous people forsook their original religious beliefs and adopted Millerism, hoping that Jesus Christ would find no fault with them upon his return to Earth. Millerites consisted of all types of people. Many working-class people hoped that Christ's arrival would end their laborious lives. Other Americans believed that many people were sinners and that only the true believers, the Millerites, would escape punishment. God wanted the deserving to assist their unworthy neighbors through various reform movements, such as the temperance and abolition movements. Other people believed that citizens of the United States were God's chosen people and that Jesus Christ's arrival would prove this point.

As October 23, 1844 approached, some Millerites went so far as to sell their earthly possessions in preparation for the second coming of Christ. Many sources claim that the Millerites, dressed in white robes, climbed the highest mountains and hills that they could find so that they would be closer to heaven. Unfortunately for these people, they did not ascend to heaven on the appointed day. Miller claimed to have made an error and quickly issued a new date for the second coming, approximately six months later. Once again, this day came and went. In most cases, Miller's followers abandoned him. In 1845, some of Miller's followers joined the Adventist Church, which Miller helped establish. Adventists believe in the second coming of Christ, but they do not specify a day when this event will occur."

Even after two failed predictions,  "In most cases" Miller lost his followers.  Even in the face of two huge, personally seen, facts (no return), some still followed this guy.  This level of stupid just cannot be erased. 
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

The reason most beliefs are discarded is when facts and data call into question the veracity of a claim.
And since religions are largely built on unfalsifiable claims...

Quote
There isn't as yet a better explanation rooted in facts and data that accounts for our existence and the existence of the universe.
That's a big part of it, though not in the way that you think.  'Science doesn't have all the answers, therefore faith.  Better an answer than no answer at all!'  What a sad motto to live by.

Some people manage to live with not having all the answers.  Some people are so terrified of unanswered questions that they'll flock to any answer, no matter how foolish or implausible.  Thank you for personally demonstrating the latter.

Quote
The belief God created the universe and life is a belief just as the belief mindless mechanistic forces minus plan or intent caused the universe and life to exist is a belief.
And the idea that missing underpants aren't stolen by gnomes (just vanishing by themselves without plan or intent) is a belief just like the idea that missing underpants are stolen by gnomes.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2017, 06:26:07 PM by Hydra009 »

Online Baruch

Well put sir, well put. This fact escapes theists though.

I can dispense with the notion that the universe or nature exists ... Buddha

PS - humans don't have answers, we have questions, which we are too arrogant to phrase properly ;-))
« Last Edit: September 08, 2017, 07:09:40 PM by Baruch »
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Online Baruch

The old saw I heard in Sunday school was that God didn't come from anything.  He was always there.  Unlike the universe which had to come from something, because everything must come from something, except God.  No wonder he created the universe, along with time.  He must have gotten really bored in the uber infinity before time.  Nothing could happen without time.  Imagine just sitting there.  Imagine trying to have an idea without time.  Then poof a universe from nothing.  It must have startled God, who decided he would make little tiny humans and put them in this huge universe.  Little tiny humans that would do bad things that God didn't like.  What a good idea!

This requires metaphysics.  And almost nobody understands metaphysics, let alone physics ... least of all ... theologians ;-)

This mismatch comes about from applying Newtonian physics to a medieval concept, that is in another category altogether.  Eternity/temporality are actually independent of time.  Synonymous with immortal/mortal ... not like a clock at all.
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Online Baruch

I always think of the Millerites when I think theists have a chance to think critically or with reason.  These are the Millerites:

"Millerites were disciples of William Miller. Miller, a farmer from New York, claimed to have discovered when Jesus Christ would return to Earth as stated in the Bible. Miller reached this belief in the 1820s but did not begin to share it with other people until the 1830s. By the early 1840s, approximately one million people had attended camp meetings and heard Miller's message. Perhaps ten percent of those people actually believed Miller.

Miller predicted that Christ's second coming would occur in April 1843 and that all worthy people would ascend to heaven on October 23, 1844. Thousands of people across the United States, including in Ohio, eagerly anticipated the event. Numerous people forsook their original religious beliefs and adopted Millerism, hoping that Jesus Christ would find no fault with them upon his return to Earth. Millerites consisted of all types of people. Many working-class people hoped that Christ's arrival would end their laborious lives. Other Americans believed that many people were sinners and that only the true believers, the Millerites, would escape punishment. God wanted the deserving to assist their unworthy neighbors through various reform movements, such as the temperance and abolition movements. Other people believed that citizens of the United States were God's chosen people and that Jesus Christ's arrival would prove this point.

As October 23, 1844 approached, some Millerites went so far as to sell their earthly possessions in preparation for the second coming of Christ. Many sources claim that the Millerites, dressed in white robes, climbed the highest mountains and hills that they could find so that they would be closer to heaven. Unfortunately for these people, they did not ascend to heaven on the appointed day. Miller claimed to have made an error and quickly issued a new date for the second coming, approximately six months later. Once again, this day came and went. In most cases, Miller's followers abandoned him. In 1845, some of Miller's followers joined the Adventist Church, which Miller helped establish. Adventists believe in the second coming of Christ, but they do not specify a day when this event will occur."

Even after two failed predictions,  "In most cases" Miller lost his followers.  Even in the face of two huge, personally seen, facts (no return), some still followed this guy.  This level of stupid just cannot be erased.

There are still crypto-Jews in Turkey, the Donmeh, who are superficially Muslims, but are in fact followers of the false Messiah, Shabbatai Zvi, from 1666.  They have been waiting longer than the Millerites ;-)  The Christians were a similar movement, but have been waiting even longer ;-))
« Last Edit: September 08, 2017, 07:10:43 PM by Baruch »
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This requires metaphysics.  And almost nobody understands metaphysics, let alone physics ... least of all ... theologians ;-)

This mismatch comes about from applying Newtonian physics to a medieval concept, that is in another category altogether.  Eternity/temporality are actually independent of time.  Synonymous with immortal/mortal ... not like a clock at all.

You would get along great with Mindy from The Animaniacs...

Brain: Come, Mindy. It's time for us to conquer the world!

Mindy: Why?

Brain: By right of superior intelligence, I am best suited to guide the destiny of this planet.

Mindy: Why?

Brain: My empirical powers give me the mandate.

Mindy: Why?

Brain: BECAUSE IT'S SOMETHING I WANT TO DO!!!
"Birds born in a cage think flying is an illness." - Alejandro Jodorowsky

There are still crypto-Jews in Turkey, the Donmeh, who are superficially Muslims, but are in fact followers of the false Messiah, Shabbatai Zvi, from 1666.  They have been waiting longer than the Millerites ;-)  The Christians were a similar movement, but have been waiting even longer ;-))
For some reason the Millerites stick in my mind for use as the 'poster child' of this kind of stupid.  It is not rare and does not happen in only christianity.  The religious can see, experience and live thru all manner of stuff like this--and still believe.  Amazing!--at least to me. 
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent,
Is he able but not willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him god?

Online Baruch

The four-letter Myers Briggs personality types that I assume you're refering to are not exactly scientifically sound. They oversimplify personalities, but many continue to use them anyway. I haven't seen any research to suggest any one type gravitates to atheism.

Nothing is scientifically sound, including Newtonianism.  I don't have research either ... but the idea that atheism is inverse Teilhard DeChardin ... is laughable ... advancing to ultimate naturalism instead of supernaturalism.  Progress is laughable, when the whole world is on the same development curve as the Soviet Union more or less.  Human arrogance and hope ... push us to disaster after disaster ... until we kill ourselves or nature kills us in self defense.

So if all anthropology is based on psychology, and all of psychology is BS .. then we really have nothing worth knowing, because ultimately, to humans, only the human is worth knowing.  Do you think there is more than one personality type?  Then present better research by whomever, don't just shoot arrows in the dark.  If there is only one personality type, isn't that just oversimplification?  If there are 7 billion personality types, then all study of man is pointless ... every man is an island unique to himself, with nothing in common with any other human.
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