I'm a Land Surveyor now! Ask Me Things!

[Baruch]

That's a pretty important corner, but it's out in a desert in the middle of nowhere, and the guy that put it there is dead.  I doubt much would change if they put it in the right place.  When I was in Arizona, I took a course in Arizona State History, about 80% of which focused on the four states squabbling over water rights.  At least they can find agreement on this one thing, which is coincidentally known to be wrong by all parties involved.

Typical government compromise.  Bet it happens everyday in Congress ;-)

[SGOS]

Typical government compromise.  Bet it happens everyday in Congress ;-)

Kick the can down the road, and let someone who gives a crap deal with it later on.

[SGOS]

Section corners are set with a fairly high degree of mathematical precision and having been a rod and chainman, I know that the measurements require a lot of precision as well.  My boss would admonish me if I wasn't pulling the chain hard enough, which would result in a point of measurement being as much as a quarter of an inch off.  In a way, 4 states are agreeing to accepting as fact that mathematically 2 + 2 = 5.

Cases of boundary dispute can occur 100 years after the corners are determined.  This is not unusual, and a new survey legally reestablishes an old boundary, often to the chagrin of one of the parties involved.  If they want to establish the authenticity of the previous corner, there is a process known as a Boundary Adjustment, which requires another survey, and new data to show the required jog to make the math come out correctly.

This could result in 4 sloppy corners that don't meet at 90 degree angles, and much of the hoopla behind the monument comes under question.  They could still have a monument dedicated to the flaws of poor measurement, and the celebration of the inadequacy of post Civil War technology.  But that would be kind of weird.

[aitm]

And what doofus decided to cut off the top of the Texas Panhandle and give to Oklahoma?

The western part of Montana was specifically designed to look like the profile of Hubert H Humphries.

[SGOS]

The western part of Montana was specifically designed to look like the profile of Hubert H Humphries.

That's some steep rugged country and would have been very hard to survey.  I'm guessing someone said, "Lets just say the ridge lines will be the boundary and be done with it."

I always thought Montana's western edge looked like Alfred Hitchcock.

[Baruch]

"In a way, 4 states are agreeing to accepting as fact that mathematically 2 + 2 = 5." ... that is how state budgets are calculated in most cases, unless their state constitution makes them balance it out.

[Mike Cl]

Michigan takes the cake, however.  It should be two states.  What surveyor came up with the idea of two giant parcels of land separated by hundreds of miles of water and calling it a state?  Northern Michigan is farther from Southern Michigan than Russia is from Sara Palin's house.  Any idiot can tell it actually belongs to Wisconsin.

This two part Michigan is the result of the Toledo War.  From wiki:

"When the Michigan Territory was first established in 1805, it included only the Lower Peninsula and the eastern portion of the Upper Peninsula. In 1819, the territory was expanded to include the remainder of the Upper Peninsula, all of Wisconsin, and part of Minnesota (previously included in the Indiana and Illinois Territories). When Michigan was preparing for statehood in the 1830s, the boundaries proposed corresponded to the original territorial boundaries, with some proposals even leaving the Upper Peninsula out entirely. Meanwhile, the territory was involved in a border dispute with the state of Ohio in a conflict known as the Toledo War.

The people of Michigan approved a constitution in May 1835 and elected state officials in late autumn 1835. Although the state government was not yet recognized by the United States Congress, the territorial government effectively ceased to exist. A constitutional convention of the state legislature refused a compromise to accept the full Upper Peninsula in exchange for ceding the Toledo Strip to Ohio. A second convention, hastily convened by Governor Stevens Thomson Mason, consisting primarily of Mason supporters, agreed in December 1836 to accept the U.P. in exchange for the Toledo Strip."

[Baruch]

See, things were so much better when even Territorial Governors were considered C-in-C of their state militias ;-(

[Cavebear]

Ok, technically I'm just a rodman at this point, as I've only been surveying for 6 months, but either way ask me things.

Also, to get it out of the way: I left this forum and others for a bit to focus on IRL concerns. I'm far left politically, but honestly this forum isn't the most "logical" for general politics, much less leftist politics. I recently, apolitically, got back into guns, so if any of you wanna talk to me about that pm me. Otherwise, just ask me questions about my job here.

OK.  When I moved here, I built a fence a foot inside the property line on Dad's advice so that I had a legal right to stand outside it to make repairs.  The neighbor built a fence keeping me out.  How to I re-establish the property line?

I'm serious.

[SGOS]

OK.  When I moved here, I built a fence a foot inside the property line on Dad's advice so that I had a legal right to stand outside it to make repairs.  The neighbor built a fence keeping me out.  How to I re-establish the property line?

I'm serious.

Why would he build a fence, if you already built a fence?

[Cavebear]

Why would he build a fence, if you already built a fence?

OK, I originally built a fence around the entire back yard to keep some rather vicious loose neighbor dogs out.  I set the fence inside the property line 1 foot because my dad said it was wise to have the outside space for repairs and legal access.  Then all the neighbors connected their own fences to mine, shutting off the access I thought I had to my own and taking the 1 foot set-in.

I know where the surveyor's pipes are and I want to reclaim the taken space.  How do I do that?  I would like the entire yard marked.

[Cavebear]

France, 1795 ... don't ask!

Eventually ... Achilles will catch up to Hectare and kill him.

You crack me up sometimes...  Achilles/Hector...  And I love myrmidons.  They turn the soil industrially

[Baruch]

I work like a Trojan here ... no, not that kind of Trojan!

on your property dispute ...
1. Ask nicely
2. Approach the local zoning commission
3. Sue his ass

#2 won't work if he is a property developer who has bribed the zoning commission every year at Christmas time.  I know, it happened to my parents.

[SGOS]

I know where the surveyor's pipes are and I want to reclaim the taken space.  How do I do that?  I would like the entire yard marked.

I think you inadvertently created a problem that will eventually have to be disputed.  Granted it was intended to avoid an appearance of trespass on your neighbor's property, but it became a one foot no-man's land that your neighbor seized for his own use.  Most people put the fence on the property line.  Good intentions aside, it's not a good idea leaving a pile of money on a table, or a foot of land lying unused on the ground.  Someone always has their eye out looking for a way to get those things, in this case by default, maybe even inadvertent default.  This is the kind of thing that leads to boundary disputes in the future.  People start assuming they know where the boundary is based on things that have nothing to do with a survey:  "I'll tell you where the boundary is.  It starts down there by the creek and it goes by those bushes over toward that shed.  When the government people came to check the power lines.  I showed 'em where the boundary is.  It's been there long as I can remember.  My Daddy showed it to me 60 years ago."

[SGOS]

I want to reclaim the taken space.  How do I do that?  I would like the entire yard marked.

First, discuss it with your neighbor, explain your original intentions, and how you ended up losing the access you intended to provide yourself.  I'm guessing he will say it's fine if you come in "his" yard to maintain your fence.  That might be workable, but the best solution would be to move the fence to the property line, so there is no question about who's yard belongs to who that can create a permanent misconception down the road.  There's no reason to give your neighbor an extra foot, although I'm sure he would accept it.

Aside from moving your fence, there is a second option, and I knew of this happening to a friend of mine.  A guy bought the empty lot next to his house, and built his house right on the property line.  It didn't bother my friend that this required trespass during construction, which would only be temporary, but the eves of the house ended up extending two feet over the property line, an "unforeseen" circumstance that creates a perplexing problem.  Indeed, part of the house (the eve) was on my friend's property.  My friend solved the problem by selling the new neighbor two feet off his lot.

The third option is to leave things as is as your father intended.  Legally, you still own access to the other side of your fence, but is one foot enough room to maintain a fence without stepping on your neighbor's property inadvertently?   You're going to end up trespassing whether you own that other foot or not.  I know this is a pedantic quibble, but this is the kind of shit neighbors sometimes fight over.

At any rate, discussion is the first step.  I would opt to hold my ground, both literally and metaphorically.  A decent neighbor will work with you to make it right.  If he won't, see a lawyer, and don't put it off.  Some states make provisions of prior use where approved or unnoticed trespass eventually becomes a right of ownership, or at least an official easement to use your property.  If your neighbor builds a wood shed with a concrete floor next to your fence, you effectively lose that one foot.  You may still own it, but you will never get it back without a legal fight, which may not settle in your favor.