Author Topic: Schwarzenegger Response to Trump, Neo-Nazis  (Read 442 times)

Offline Baruch

Re: Schwarzenegger Response to Trump, Neo-Nazis
« Reply #15 on: August 19, 2017, 01:07:45 PM »
Sorry was I making an argument? And how old are you again? Just curious because it sometimes seems like your own arguments come from a less matured place of growth. Maybe we can help with that.

Yes, yes ... feel the hate - Emperor Shiranu

The Sith always masquerade as Jedi.  Corrupt politicians always aim for absolute power ... they simply can't control the vampire current of their home appliances ... bwahaha.
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Offline Baruch

Re: Schwarzenegger Response to Trump, Neo-Nazis
« Reply #16 on: August 19, 2017, 01:10:02 PM »
Yes, when you make a point that is contrary to what you are addressing, that is commonly known as an argument.

I have to admit, I never thought the position, "Nazis are bad." came from a place of immaturity. Perhaps I could use a bit more clarity on that.

In relativistic morality .. nothing is bad, nothing is good.  So yes, Zyklon-B Nazis are not bad.  Neither are Nuking Americans.  It all depends on whose ox is gassed or vaporized.  In nature (and that is all most people here admit to) if it can be physically done, then we are down with that.
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Offline Drew_2017

Re: Schwarzenegger Response to Trump, Neo-Nazis
« Reply #17 on: August 19, 2017, 10:05:37 PM »
Yes, when you make a point that is contrary to what you are addressing, that is commonly known as an argument.

I have to admit, I never thought the position, "Nazis are bad." came from a place of immaturity. Perhaps I could use a bit more clarity on that.

I'm glad you are willing to have a dialog with a few people you vehemently disagree with. Some on the far left employ the tactic of shouting down any opposing opposition. As a student of Nazism I'm sure you see the similarity in tactics. Your problem isn't with condemning Nazi's and White Supremacists it's with your outrageous claim that some most or all of the folks on the right who support or voted for Trump are by extension of the same ilk. This reminds me of Hillary's claim half of Trump supporters are a basket of deplorable s...how did that work out for her?

Your claim Trump is a Nazi or a White Supremacist is false...I might as well state my opinion as fact, everyone else does.
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.
Albert Einstein

Offline Shiranu (OP)

Re: Schwarzenegger Response to Trump, Neo-Nazis
« Reply #18 on: August 19, 2017, 10:54:14 PM »
Quote
Your problem isn't with condemning Nazi's and White Supremacists it's with your outrageous claim that some most or all of the folks on the right who support or voted for Trump are by extension of the same ilk.

Then this is something that is being lost in transmission; either I am not clearly stating myself, you aren't interpreting it how I mean and feel, or both.

I do not think that all on the right, or even the majority, are of anywhere near the same ilk as Trump or the alt-right. I think the overwhelming majority of them were suckered into his populist and nationalist views, which are both not inherently bad. The problem is both his populism and his nationalism came from a place of hatred, and we are seeing that now manifest it's ugly head both in Char. from the protesters but also in Trump's deflection instead of outright condemnation of Nazis and white supremacists. If this was just a anomaly I think it would be fair to say he just scuffed the shot on this one, but the thing is he has a history of racist remarks, of not distancing himself from hate groups, of making his chief adviser the leader of the alt-right movement... there comes a point where you simply have to say that all the evidence mounted against him is too damning.

I don't remember now where I posted it, but it's like Nazi Germany... I don't for a second believe that the average German was anything like your original Nazi party member, but they bought into his message of fear and bigotry and gave him power... and things snowballed from there, to the point it was out of the average person's control regardless of if they liked it or not.

I think the average Trump voter, like the average voter in general, is not very well informed and not very politically savvy. The problem is they come from regions that are struggling economically and socially as the global economy shifts (and this is not an America-only problem, the same can be seen in the demographics of pro-Brexit and pro-far right UK parties who often come from struggling rural and industrial regions). When you add both ignorance (that both the left and the right have failed to address) of politics, two weak candidates, and a very dire situation... people will make dire choices.

But those dire choices have consequences. By voting for a candidate who openly makes racist remarks on the campaign trail, who mocked a handicapped reporter, who made countless sexist and horrible remarks about people left, right and centre... regardless of the situation, the Trump voters have to take some responsibility for their action.

I don't believe they should be punished, I don't think they should be branded racist, bigoted, whatever if that is why they voted for him without looking at other factors... but what I want to see is some remorse, some recognition that they made a poor choice. That they will fight for better choices in the future (and that goes for democrats as well). As it stands, and I am very hesitant to say this... both sides continue to drive a wedge between each other when the left paints Trump voters in only one light without viewing the bigger picture and when the right doubles down. It's a feedback response between the two.

And I'm trying not to wall of text, but not everything can be summed up in one or two sentence... another problem arises in that the president's, as head statesman, job is to bridge those divides and try to find common ground... to try to unite the American people. But instead we have a president that uses a domestic terrorist attack to further drive a wedge between the two.

So this is much of the reason it is very frustrating for me here, when several posters insist I am a dyed-in-the-wool leftist or think all on the right are racist or just want to play identity politics... this is simply not true. I was raised very racist and very anti-LGBT, I know what that side of the isle is like, and I don't think that people who hold these views because of the society they were raised in are inherently "bad people". I also know it takes very hard work to get over those mindsets and that it is quite possible you never fully will. But what I do know is that one side fights tooth and nail to conserve that culture using fear and hatred, and that is antithesis to everything I believe in and I am not shy in saying so. If you go back to my posts during Obama's presidency, you will find the majority of remarks I had about Obama were negative as well... that he wasn't doing enough to promote unity, that he was too violent of president foreignly, and so on. My views often clash with mainline Democrats and leftists as well who I feel don't equally use wisdom and compassion to guide their policy, but I side with them more often than not for practical reasons... they are the one's with any chance of winning who align closest to my beliefs, so I hold my nose and vote for them lest someone like Trump, who is drastically different from my views, wins... and then vote in smaller elections (mayor, governor, house, senate, etc.) where there is more competition within the parties for candidates who more accurately reflect my views to win. 

Quote
This reminds me of Hillary's claim half of Trump supporters are a basket of deplorable s...how did that work out for her?

I will say this; Hillary had the good sense, be it either moral or just political, to then say the next day, "That was a terrible exaggeration, I got caught up in the moment and said something that was not true and was derogatory.". That is different from Trump who will double, triple, whatever down to avoid saying he was wrong.

Quote
Your claim Trump is a Nazi or a White Supremacist is false...I might as well state my opinion as fact, everyone else does.

I don't think he is a Nazi, but I am not sure about the white supremacist... though I don't think I have ever called him one. He is racist though, that is simple fact when you look at the body of work as it were that he has put out indicating that to be so. What I have said is that he sympathizes with many of their positions... maybe not to the point of actively holding and acting on them, but at least staying silent about them, accepting their support, and defending them when they rear their ugly head.

For the president of the free world, that is simply not acceptable behaviour. It's one thing to just be a regular person and to behave that way (then you are just an asshole), but for someone of his power this is inexcusable.


I don't think I have argued much with you, so I do not hold an opinion on you like I do pr and Munch, who I think have gone too far down the deep end of bigotry and hatred to reason with. And I don't expect to sway your opinion and all of the sudden you will be singing kumbaya and hugging trees or whatever. But when I get frustrated in the other thread and say those things, it's coming from a very honest and emotional place within me that simply has no tolerance for defense of Nazism, and I don't mean that as an insult towards you as a person (as much as my wording indicates otherwise; I feel if we met in person we would be perfectly civil and don't view online personas as reflections of the "true" person's colours)... the anger is almost purely directed towards the position itself rather than you.

And that is something I realise I can be very bad at, at letting that anger be expressed at the speaker rather than the position itself, but alot of that comes from the position you hold being held by people there is no reasoning with. It's not right and it's not a good form of argument, but it is at the end of the day what it is and can't really change what was said now. And if we continue this argument, there is a good chance I will throw attacks like that again... I will be the first to admit my Mediterranean and Celtic blood can be very fiery at times.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2017, 11:06:54 PM by Shiranu »
"No one is born hating another person because of the color of his skin or his background or his religion..." - Nelson Mandela

"Too much sanity may be madness and the maddest of all, to see life as it is and not as it should be." - Miguel de Cervantes

Offline Baruch

Re: Schwarzenegger Response to Trump, Neo-Nazis
« Reply #19 on: August 20, 2017, 12:38:42 AM »
Better arguments.  Not that ideological cat fights get you anywhere.
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Offline Cavebear

Re: Schwarzenegger Response to Trump, Neo-Nazis
« Reply #20 on: August 20, 2017, 12:56:25 AM »
If Antifa is on the right side of history, why do they need clubs and balloons filled with piss to fight with?

Well, demi-god Munch, it was because they knew the Nazis and KKK were coming with torches, clubs, police-quality plexiglass shields, and AK-47s. 

And BTW, the weapons the Nazis and KKK brought were documented, the claims of counter-protesters carrying the stuff you mentioned were not.  You listen to too much Fox news or worse...  I did see one counter-protestor idiot lighting a hairspray can with a match.  That lasted 5 seconds before he had to drop it from the heat, (or it ran out, I'm not sure) LOL!
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Offline pr126

Re: Schwarzenegger Response to Trump, Neo-Nazis
« Reply #21 on: August 20, 2017, 11:48:18 PM »
Rentamob on Craiglist.  I would have never guessed.

There is another video where it is offering $1500 a day with expenses.
For Soros, money well spent.



‘War is Peace. Freedom is Slavery. Ignorance is Strength.' 1984

Offline Baruch

Re: Schwarzenegger Response to Trump, Neo-Nazis
« Reply #22 on: August 21, 2017, 06:42:20 AM »
Pr126 ... it is all fake news, anything I don't want to acknowledge is fake news and alt-right and racist ... aieee (hides under bed rather than go to work).  The eclipse, Yellowstone ... we are all going to die, I tell you, die,
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Online Munch

Re: Schwarzenegger Response to Trump, Neo-Nazis
« Reply #23 on: August 21, 2017, 07:04:51 AM »
Well, demi-god Munch, it was because they knew the Nazis and KKK were coming with torches, clubs, police-quality plexiglass shields, and AK-47s. 

And BTW, the weapons the Nazis and KKK brought were documented, the claims of counter-protesters carrying the stuff you mentioned were not.  You listen to too much Fox news or worse...  I did see one counter-protestor idiot lighting a hairspray can with a match.  That lasted 5 seconds before he had to drop it from the heat, (or it ran out, I'm not sure) LOL!

Dude, your making the assumption that I watch fox news as much as Shiranu assuming I'm somehow alt right because I called him on his crap.

Offline Shiranu (OP)

Re: Schwarzenegger Response to Trump, Neo-Nazis
« Reply #24 on: August 21, 2017, 09:10:17 AM »
Dude, your making the assumption that I watch fox news as much as Shiranu assuming I'm somehow alt right because I called him on his crap.

Mate, I call you alt-right because you literally use the exact same arguments and use the exact same sources as they do.
"No one is born hating another person because of the color of his skin or his background or his religion..." - Nelson Mandela

"Too much sanity may be madness and the maddest of all, to see life as it is and not as it should be." - Miguel de Cervantes

Offline pr126

Re: Schwarzenegger Response to Trump, Neo-Nazis
« Reply #25 on: August 21, 2017, 10:06:37 AM »
Well, Karl Marx had a beard, Munch has a beard. Therefore Munch is a communist. Not alt-right
It stands to reason.
Just remembered. Shiranu also has a beard...
LOL.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2017, 10:36:39 AM by pr126 »
‘War is Peace. Freedom is Slavery. Ignorance is Strength.' 1984

Offline Baruch

Re: Schwarzenegger Response to Trump, Neo-Nazis
« Reply #26 on: August 21, 2017, 07:02:19 PM »
Mate, I call you alt-right because you literally use the exact same arguments and use the exact same sources as they do.

So if alt-right says 2+2=4 ... you will damn arithmetic, full socialism ahead?
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Offline Baruch

Re: Schwarzenegger Response to Trump, Neo-Nazis
« Reply #27 on: August 21, 2017, 07:03:19 PM »
Yes, when you make a point that is contrary to what you are addressing, that is commonly known as an argument.

I have to admit, I never thought the position, "Nazis are bad." came from a place of immaturity. Perhaps I could use a bit more clarity on that.

Americans are bad too, just ask a Native.
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Offline pr126

Re: Schwarzenegger Response to Trump, Neo-Nazis
« Reply #28 on: August 24, 2017, 02:29:55 PM »
‘War is Peace. Freedom is Slavery. Ignorance is Strength.' 1984

Offline Hakurei Reimu

Re: Schwarzenegger Response to Trump, Neo-Nazis
« Reply #29 on: August 24, 2017, 05:35:54 PM »
Americans are bad too, just ask a Native.
Of course. The problem begins when you stop striving to be better.
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