Author Topic: All Islam all the time thread ...  (Read 811 times)

Offline Baruch (OP)

All Islam all the time thread ...
« on: August 12, 2017, 09:27:35 AM »
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Brotherhood

So in what way is this article biased?

We have no common basis for discussing Sharia unless we both understand ...

"ikhlāṣ al-tawḥīd" vs "sharā'i sam'iyyāt"

"ikhlāṣ al-'amal" vs "sharā'i' aqliyyāt"
« Last Edit: August 12, 2017, 11:56:05 AM by Baruch »
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Offline pr126

Re: All Islam all the time thread ...
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2017, 11:56:40 AM »
Well, it is overly sanitised. No surprises here. Wikipedia is edited by all and sundry. Anyone can do it.

Here is what is missing:

Since its founding in 1928, the Muslim Brotherhood (Hizb al-Ikhwan al-Muslimun) has profoundly influenced the political life of the Middle East.

Its motto is telling: "Allah is our objective. The Prophet is our leader. The Qur'an is our law. Jihad is our way. Dying in the way of Allah is our highest hope

http://www.meforum.org/687/the-muslim-brotherhoods-conquest-of-europe
“True Ignorance is not the absence of knowledge but the refusal to acquire it.” - Karl Popper

Offline Baruch (OP)

Re: All Islam all the time thread ...
« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2017, 12:00:28 PM »
Well, it is overly sanitised. No surprises here. Wikipedia is edited by all and sundry. Anyone can do it.

Here is what is missing:

Since its founding in 1928, the Muslim Brotherhood (Hizb al-Ikhwan al-Muslimun) has profoundly influenced the political life of the Middle East.

Its motto is telling: "Allah is our objective. The Prophet is our leader. The Qur'an is our law. Jihad is our way. Dying in the way of Allah is our highest hope

http://www.meforum.org/687/the-muslim-brotherhoods-conquest-of-europe

Yes, but this string is primarily for Ibn Khaldun .. so we can build a fence around his Torah

You know I am not an apologist for anyone ;-)
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Offline pr126

Re: All Islam all the time thread ...
« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2017, 12:06:23 PM »
What the non-Muslims do not realize is that sharia is not just for Muslims.

Sharia is to dominate non-Muslims as well if it manages to become law in non-Muslim countries.
How can it happen?
In one word, demography.
I predict that by the end of the century Europe will be Muslim majority.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2017, 12:09:56 PM by pr126 »
“True Ignorance is not the absence of knowledge but the refusal to acquire it.” - Karl Popper

Offline Baruch (OP)

Re: All Islam all the time thread ...
« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2017, 12:09:54 PM »
What the non-Muslims do not realize is that sharia is not just for Muslims.

Sharia is to dominate non-Muslims as well if it manages to become law in non-Muslim countries.
How can it happen?
In one word, demography.
I predict that Europe by the end of the century will be Muslim majority.

To repeat ...

Quote
We have no common basis for discussing Sharia unless we both understand ...

"ikhlāṣ al-tawḥīd" vs "sharā'i sam'iyyāt"

"ikhlāṣ al-'amal" vs "sharā'i' aqliyyāt"

I do think culture matters somewhat.  And Western culture is a sentimental favorite.  But there is a lot of variety among humans.  At some point, any given culture will become as dead as ancient Egypt, and just exist as a Coptic shadow.  Do you really want the Iraqis still building ziggurats and having the annual prostitution faire for Ishtar?

Personally, I couldn't care less if the Europeans (culturally) are all Nordic or African.  Stranger things have happened.  Gentiles have picked up an obscure Jewish sect and converted it into a world-beating movement.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2017, 12:13:28 PM by Baruch »
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Offline Cavebear

Re: All Islam all the time thread ...
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2017, 03:27:14 PM »
What the non-Muslims do not realize is that sharia is not just for Muslims.

Sharia is to dominate non-Muslims as well if it manages to become law in non-Muslim countries.
How can it happen?
In one word, demography.
I predict that by the end of the century Europe will be Muslim majority.

Sort of the "One election, once" idea?
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!  b 1950

Online Shiranu

Re: All Islam all the time thread ...
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2017, 05:13:52 PM »
Quote
I predict that by the end of the century Europe will be Muslim majority.

That's nice, but actual experts at demographics completely disagree with you.

Overall, all religions are suppose to make gains globally while secularlists and atheists stay roughly where they are, due to the fact that we on average have less children than Christians, Muslims and Hindus. If you want to "combat" that, get to having more children, or adopt children, or become a teacher or something.


However at most, Muslims are estimated to make up about 15%-20% of the population. The next great migration to Europe will likely come from Christian Africa, who will make up 4 in 10 global Christians. And African Christianity, which is heavily influenced by animism and witchcraft belief, will not be an improvement over Islam.

Long story short, you done goofed Europe when you made 3/4th the world your territory and exploited the people for generation, as well as took actions that directly lead to religious fundamentalists assuming power across the ex-territories. Now us younger generations have to pay for your mistakes, while you get to sit back and blame everyone else for your mistakes (and you get to die before the real fruits of your sick labours pay off). So thank you for ruining the world for the rest of us... and that goes well beyond post-colonialism (*cough* *cough* Global Climate Change...)
« Last Edit: August 12, 2017, 05:20:37 PM by Shiranu »
Om Mani Padme Hum

Offline Cavebear

Re: All Islam all the time thread ...
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2017, 05:28:07 PM »
That's nice, but actual experts at demographics completely disagree with you.

Overall, all religions are suppose to make gains globally while secularlists and atheists stay roughly where they are, due to the fact that we on average have less children than Christians, Muslims and Hindus. If you want to "combat" that, get to having more children, or adopt children, or become a teacher or something.


However at most, Muslims are estimated to make up about 15%-20% of the population. The next great migration to Europe will likely come from Christian Africa, who will make up 4 in 10 global Christians. And African Christianity, which is heavily influenced by animism and witchcraft belief, will not be an improvement over Islam.

Long story short, you done goofed Europe when you made 3/4th the world your territory and exploited the people for generation, as well as took actions that directly lead to religious fundamentalists assuming power across the ex-territories. Now us younger generations have to pay for your mistakes, while you get to sit back and blame everyone else for your mistakes (and you get to die before the real fruits of your sick labours pay off). So thank you for ruining the world for the rest of us... and that goes well beyond post-colonialism (*cough* *cough* Global Climate Change...)

Forgive me for not having a houseful of surviving children...
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!  b 1950

Offline Cavebear

Re: All Islam all the time thread ...
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2017, 05:29:59 PM »
Actually, doesn't that mean that all advanced societies doom themselves by helping other raise children who otherwise would have died?  Maybe we should withhold medications?
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!  b 1950

Online Shiranu

Re: All Islam all the time thread ...
« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2017, 05:54:42 PM »
Forgive me for not having a houseful of surviving children...

I'm not judging, I more than likely won't have children either between my terrible irl ability to connect with people and mental illness in my family.

To your second post: Not necessarily. Education means most Christians and Muslims in the West become more and more moderate and modernized, even if they still believe in God/Allah. It  may take a generation or two for the new culture to set in, but you can say that for literally any group that has moved into a new region, both in Europe and globally. It happened in Rome, it happened in China, it happened in India, it happened in Central Mexico, it happened in the South West, in the Midwest, in the East coast, the West coast, South America... it literally has happened everywhere. Shit, in the United States our entire history has been an example of new immigrants coming in, struggling to adapt to our culture for a few generations, and then once the next wave starts being fully integrated and complaining about how the next guy is refusing to adapt.


Yes, sometimes civilizations fall... but what rises is almost always something even better. And I think we have reached a point where civilization is so globalized it cannot really "fall" in the old way it use to, I don't foresee any new dark ages. What is best is to stay the course of progress we are making and make sure that the children of anyone who wants to join that path are properly educated and informed. Yes, there will be bad seeds, but that exists in every facet of life. That simply is life. What we have to do is accept this and move on, instead of bringing progress to a halt because if everything isn't perfect, there is no point in striving for excellence.

This is what pr doesn't understand; giving in to fear and bigotry is giving them exactly what they want, and it's cutting our collective noses off to smite our own faces. Unity is what makes us stronger in the end, and unity is like the ocean... there is no point standing on the shore, throwing punches at the waves and expecting to push the sea back so you can walk across it. Even if it seems you are winning, it is just the tides receding and preparing to indifferently come right back at you. You can either fight a losing battle and dig your heels into the sand, or accept the reality that the world will intermingle and cultures flow, and just do your best to work with what you have to make the world a better place. Accepting the ocean exists and building a boat to flow with it will take you much further than digging into the shore and hoping to push the ocean back.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2017, 06:09:21 PM by Shiranu »
Om Mani Padme Hum

Offline Cavebear

Re: All Islam all the time thread ...
« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2017, 06:17:11 PM »
Well, I was reacting to the "you done goofed" comment.  It seemed like you were laughing at us for providing medicines, food and water pipes to 3rd world countries. 
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!  b 1950

Online Shiranu

Re: All Islam all the time thread ...
« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2017, 06:28:31 PM »
Well, I was reacting to the "you done goofed" comment.  It seemed like you were laughing at us for providing medicines, food and water pipes to 3rd world countries. 

Also provided dictators, religious fanatics, unstable and corrupt governments, colonialism and slavery for several hundred years, national borders with no regard for ethnic and religious boundaries leading to genocides and massive power struggles keeping the countries destabilized even when we aren't destabilizing them for our own agendas...

I could go on, but the point is European interference, like Chinese, Muslim, Indian, whoever interference and colonialism, is biting us in the ass now and it's like always done far more harm than good. History repeating itself like always.

I laugh because the alternative is to cry.
Om Mani Padme Hum

Offline Cavebear

Re: All Islam all the time thread ...
« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2017, 06:34:34 PM »
Also provided dictators, religious fanatics, unstable and corrupt governments, colonialism and slavery for several hundred years, national borders with no regard for ethnic and religious boundaries leading to genocides and massive power struggles keeping the countries destabilized even when we aren't destabilizing them for our own agendas...

I could go on, but the point is European interference, like Chinese, Muslim, Indian, whoever interference and colonialism, is biting us in the ass now and it's like always done far more harm than good. History repeating itself like always.

I laugh because the alternative is to cry.

 No disagreement here.  I know too much history.  But bloody conquest, torture, slavery, and arbitrary national boundaries didn't start with Europe...  And my ancestors were English peasant serfs who couldn't leave the farms they worked...
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!  b 1950

Offline Baruch (OP)

Re: All Islam all the time thread ...
« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2017, 11:46:08 PM »
That's nice, but actual experts at demographics completely disagree with you.

Overall, all religions are suppose to make gains globally while secularlists and atheists stay roughly where they are, due to the fact that we on average have less children than Christians, Muslims and Hindus. If you want to "combat" that, get to having more children, or adopt children, or become a teacher or something.


However at most, Muslims are estimated to make up about 15%-20% of the population. The next great migration to Europe will likely come from Christian Africa, who will make up 4 in 10 global Christians. And African Christianity, which is heavily influenced by animism and witchcraft belief, will not be an improvement over Islam.

Long story short, you done goofed Europe when you made 3/4th the world your territory and exploited the people for generation, as well as took actions that directly lead to religious fundamentalists assuming power across the ex-territories. Now us younger generations have to pay for your mistakes, while you get to sit back and blame everyone else for your mistakes (and you get to die before the real fruits of your sick labours pay off). So thank you for ruining the world for the rest of us... and that goes well beyond post-colonialism (*cough* *cough* Global Climate Change...)

Karma then?  Cavebear will be triggered.

Hate all Europeans, love all non-Europeans then?  Isn't that just bigotry of one kind vs another.  I don't find anything Progressive in that.
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Offline Baruch (OP)

Re: All Islam all the time thread ...
« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2017, 11:47:37 PM »
Actually, doesn't that mean that all advanced societies doom themselves by helping other raise children who otherwise would have died?  Maybe we should withhold medications?

Mission civilatrice strikes again ;-(  And I know you were being rhetorical.  All comes down to Col Kurtz, and him losing his mind because the Viet Cong cut off the arms of children who received vaccinations from the Americans.  Yes, non-1st World people are so superior ;-(  The Ugly American goes psycho ... won't be a good thing for anyone.  Don't think Charlie Sheen can save us this time.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2017, 11:51:10 PM by Baruch »
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