Author Topic: Is it possible to reform Atheism ?  (Read 2013 times)

Offline Cavebear

Re: Is it possible to reform Atheism ?
« Reply #30 on: August 20, 2017, 03:51:34 AM »
cavebear,  this is not the time. There is no we . you’re not awake  you keep playing around and I’ll lose my focus and the articles will get longer . go read Dr Seuss take  on Wikipedia and report to me . .be good boy. behave yourself. now run along. get a life 
 
Will make comments later on. Give you a chance first .asleep people who think they’re awake are not  included.


Ibn thinks Dr Suess is essential to my religious beliefs.  I must have referenced liking the stories and he picked that up.

And there may be more than one Ibn.  Some posts seem very different than others.  One Ibn post claimed he was catholic.

The replies to me are very unintentionally humerous.  "Be a good boy"?  "Check Dr Seuss on Wikipedia"?  "you keep playing around and I’ll lose my focus and the articles will get longer"?  LOL!

Some people and bots are just weird!  If that IS a real Moslem, he is setting a record for bizarre.

Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!  b 1950

Offline Cavebear

Re: Is it possible to reform Atheism ?
« Reply #31 on: August 20, 2017, 05:13:12 AM »
I don't know if ANYONE actually read Ibn Kaldun's post, but here is just one paragraph in the middle of it...

"And so  Islam was back the terror of the land resurrected .   it was better than Jenkins Khan. Khan killed only half the place if they surrendered to him.  . Abd AL Aziz killed everyone .. no one was spared . women but for the plump ones were destroyed . rules had to be obeyed . take too many women and children how are you going to feed them? So kill them all, take the wealth and few women to replace the ones you got fed up with or you can’t sell  and young kids for future slave warriors."

If that isn't as close to insanity as you can get not being locked up, I don't know what is.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!  b 1950

Offline Baruch

Re: Is it possible to reform Atheism ?
« Reply #32 on: August 20, 2017, 08:40:30 AM »
I don't know if ANYONE actually read Ibn Kaldun's post, but here is just one paragraph in the middle of it...

"And so  Islam was back the terror of the land resurrected .   it was better than Jenkins Khan. Khan killed only half the place if they surrendered to him.  . Abd AL Aziz killed everyone .. no one was spared . women but for the plump ones were destroyed . rules had to be obeyed . take too many women and children how are you going to feed them? So kill them all, take the wealth and few women to replace the ones you got fed up with or you can’t sell  and young kids for future slave warriors."

If that isn't as close to insanity as you can get not being locked up, I don't know what is.

He seems to really hate ... historical Islam.  Has an even more negative view of it than a Christian does.
שלום

Offline Cavebear

Re: Is it possible to reform Atheism ?
« Reply #33 on: August 20, 2017, 10:47:22 AM »
He seems to really hate ... historical Islam.  Has an even more negative view of it than a Christian does.

Ok, I got an email saying you actually made sense of this, so I looked and you did.  Congrats.  Try to do it more often...

I'll reply:  Yes Ibn seems to vary between hate and love of his professed theism.  Not unlike some of other theists about their own beliefs.  Ibn's posts are very hard to follow, more bizarre than most, pretty much confused and contradictory,  but that is what I expect from most theists, so it isn't a great surprise. 

I can understand him a small bit.  Islam is less rational than most theisms.  So it it is easy to get confused in it.  I may actually understand it more clearly than he does, having studied it from the outside.

Have you done the same?
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!  b 1950

Offline Baruch

Re: Is it possible to reform Atheism ?
« Reply #34 on: August 20, 2017, 12:01:31 PM »
Ok, I got an email saying you actually made sense of this, so I looked and you did.  Congrats.  Try to do it more often...

I'll reply:  Yes Ibn seems to vary between hate and love of his professed theism.  Not unlike some of other theists about their own beliefs.  Ibn's posts are very hard to follow, more bizarre than most, pretty much confused and contradictory,  but that is what I expect from most theists, so it isn't a great surprise. 

I can understand him a small bit.  Islam is less rational than most theisms.  So it it is easy to get confused in it.  I may actually understand it more clearly than he does, having studied it from the outside.

Have you done the same?

I am a bit of an expert in comparative religion.  I sometimes try to read the Quran in the original language (but my Arabic isn't very good).  Again, the point is to speak and hear Islam, this is why audio recordings of famous singers, chanting the Quran, are so popular in Islam.  Originally the Psalms were chanted too.
שלום

Offline Ibn Khaldun (OP)

Re: Is it possible to reform Atheism ?
« Reply #35 on: August 20, 2017, 01:32:39 PM »
My beloved Atheists , whats going on? do I have the floor

C avebear , what you need to do is explain yourself and not explain me .
 
Sadly the record shows:

in my introduction post you  claimed that you  did research about surat Al Fatiha and  cited Wikipedia article  on suart al Fatiha as the  source and then you  gave a totally inaccurate account of Wikipedia exposition of surat Al Fatiha  by stating  that Wikipedia  described   surat al fatiha as  mostly speaking of , in your own words , ’”we love god and diminishing humans crap”. That is not true not even remotely so , not to mention the word love was not even mentioned in the Wikipedia account .
perhaps you need to explain your in accurate account in light of your claim that it is the product of research by you. Not for my sake but your sake.what you say has no impact on beyond empathy for you.

Then you directed a question to me that If that was what I wanted then it was fine by you . the problem here the  context of  my exchange with Barouch about surat al fatiha  revolved around my charge that surat al fatiha teaches hate of Jews and Christian . that Wikipedia account supported and validated that charge .

Perhaps You need to explain to yourself how your inaccurate account could possibly be what I want given my exchange with Barouch .what I would want would be  corroboration of my claims bearing on the sura. Wikipedia account does that .
You have been going into my  posts dismissing and vilifying them in  subversive manner, that’s is without  substance other than to dismiss and vilify. .  . in the case of surat al fatiha by an inaccurate account that could not possibly be the result of a research. In others by claiming you knew the stuff I talked about .in another you said to leave “us” alone and you complained about the length of my articulation . and in pr152 post by mocking my post which  interacted positively  by covering an area very much related to the context of the OP. A video was posted that touched on the change of the direction of prayer. That change was commanded in the Quran and I said those verses were inserted in the quranic text . I said that would be easy to show .in the post in your first entry you said you found the post boring. Then to my post you said what you said . its there .
You say things like “leave [us] alone “ and “we”  and you warn other saying “let us be awrae “ that I’m more than one person and some other stuff that is weird. Look I’m not a shrink . but when someone talks to me like that I feel as though I should urge  the person to seek help. Its possible you just want to be the center of attention  , but your behavior might also be rooted in mental issues .

Cavebear I’m just me .there is no one else . and Ibn means  son . its not a name . onlky me . there is no we , no us .

@Barouch, few posts after you told me this is the best atheist forum I started to wonder if it was because they let you stay  for so long derailing posts and talking nonsense . even cavebear said that in the short time I have been here he understood more from me  than he has in all the time you have been here . do you realize how serious is that to come  for someone like cavebear ? if cavebear says that given his situation

I told you many times to desist from insulting people.  You referred to  the members of this site as peanut gallery . you called people Satan.everytiem I told you to stop.  Now you said that Christians have negative views of  Muslims  by claiming that I hate historical islam .  Do you realize what it is you have  said  Barouch ?  you just condemned all Christians . That is a very sick thing to say and to say it at your age is significant . when people get to your age and still say things like that then there is very little chance they will change .

Is that how you see Christians Barouch ?  do you have Christian neighbors? Do you let them know that you think that of them  ?  Or do you hide and smile ? what gives you the right to say that Barouch? who are you ?

The problem here you say you’re a jew. When I  went to America, when I arrived there , I hated Jews and thought they were evil based on the nurturing I received at home. If you said to me something good about jews I concluded you were working for them or a spy. My mind was such I couldn’t accept that a jews could be anything good because that would mean evil is good . but then I met this naughty  Jewish girl and she seduced me into knowing her intimately several times  . After that I no longer thought that Jews were evil. The thought was banished from my mind . I was healed from that curse so that when we went back home, me and the rest of the company I was the only one who no longer thought jews were evil. I was of teh opinion jews are not anyhting like you Barouch.

Now I’m not suggesting that could work as a cure for you seeing as thought you’re over the hill and two cents short of a six pack in that area, but hey why not try ?  got to the sex clinic and have the doctor do something about your hormone level. Then go to china and have them install batteries or something . China  price sensitive product ideal for cash strapped senior citizens.

Look I like to attribute your hateful remarks towards Christians are nothing more than the slip of the tongue. So don’t worry about it . a lot of Arabs feel as you do towards Christians . I think its  some kind of envy because Christians make you  look bad by comparison . there hundreds of Christians charities operating in the slumps of Muslims majority countries helping provide all kind of services. Christians operate in areas where the UN itself doesn’t dare operate . In particular those American die hard evangelists . I’ve seen them with my own eyes. I have seen shit that boggles the eyes . American evangelist driving trucks loaded with medicine and supplies  in ,muddy impassable terrains and through mine fields. I have seen with my own eyes nun walking into hut full of ebola infected victims. I’m eye witness of that . But not only the poor but also the wealthy Muslims  benefit immensely from Christians , from the best schools and colleges . some of  the best schools in Muslims majority countries are Christians schools and Muslims flock and compete to enter them .

No I don’t hate Muslims.  I’m not someone capable of hate . I just don’t have it in me . I can produce many Muslims who would be willing to lay their life on the line for me .  that’s why I can speak freely . I expose  history because  the  history shows Islam has caused and still cause so much pain and suffering to Muslims .

I gave an account of an expert detailing the butchering of 7 Million Muslims. Your response was a lone sentence that went oh oh just another human deal. Yes it was another human deal albeit one incriminating and condemning Islam. You don’t care about Muslims . you care about Islam .  you were upset because the account made Islam look like shit . that’s what bothered you.c’mon admit barouch .

You have been going around in this forum acting like the village clown . you make jews look bad . you say things that make Jews look bad. And you like it here because they let you do it . I mean that’s what you must have meant when you said to me its the best atheist forum.  everyone testimony about you so far says they think you’re  a joke.you don't mind becasue you refuse to fix your ways  what you’re doing is subverting by posing as the village clown. 

Now I warned you before but you failed to listen , next I am going to trample on Islam so bad you’re  gonna hurt real bad. Not because I hate Muslims but because I love them and want to free them from that evil.  You on the other hand are bent on pandering to that evil so millions more get butchered.

you're not an expert in Islam . nothing you have  said shows it . listening to quran recitals in arabic doesn't prove you are an expert . you don't even by your own admission understand  what the guy is saying .what is wrog with you. you are funny
 
hey with great admiration  . carry on .

now would you all please cool it  so i can finish  this post . go play in someone else post
 
next i want to do the 3rd expert . oh wait the  comments next

Offline Baruch

Re: Is it possible to reform Atheism ?
« Reply #36 on: August 20, 2017, 01:40:46 PM »
Relatively coherent (not that I am complaining).  Many Jews make Jews look bad ... that isn't any problem (see many Israelis).  This is the same with any group of people, however you define if they are in or out.

You want to liberate Muslims?  Isn't that megalomania ... are you sure you have saved yourself yet?  How can you save others?  And what are you saving them toward ... Catholicism?  Just questions, not judgements.  And no, I welcome Cavebear's criticisms of me ... it tells me how right I really am ;-)

I don't see one way of life as being the only correct one.  Maybe no way of life is correct ... but we poor ape men must do what we can while we still breath.
שלום

Offline Cavebear

Re: Is it possible to reform Atheism ?
« Reply #37 on: August 20, 2017, 01:41:59 PM »
My beloved Atheists , whats going on? do I have the floor

C avebear , what you need to do is explain yourself and not explain me .
 
Sadly the record shows:

in my introduction post you  claimed that you  did research about surat Al Fatiha and  cited Wikipedia article  on suart al Fatiha as the  source and then you  gave a totally inaccurate account of Wikipedia exposition of surat Al Fatiha  by stating  that Wikipedia  described   surat al fatiha as  mostly speaking of , in your own words , ’”we love god and diminishing humans crap”. That is not true not even remotely so , not to mention the word love was not even mentioned in the Wikipedia account .
perhaps you need to explain your in accurate account in light of your claim that it is the product of research by you. Not for my sake but your sake.what you say has no impact on beyond empathy for you.

Then you directed a question to me that If that was what I wanted then it was fine by you . the problem here the  context of  my exchange with Barouch about surat al fatiha  revolved around my charge that surat al fatiha teaches hate of Jews and Christian . that Wikipedia account supported and validated that charge .

Perhaps You need to explain to yourself how your inaccurate account could possibly be what I want given my exchange with Barouch .what I would want would be  corroboration of my claims bearing on the sura. Wikipedia account does that .
You have been going into my  posts dismissing and vilifying them in  subversive manner, that’s is without  substance other than to dismiss and vilify. .  . in the case of surat al fatiha by an inaccurate account that could not possibly be the result of a research. In others by claiming you knew the stuff I talked about .in another you said to leave “us” alone and you complained about the length of my articulation . and in pr152 post by mocking my post which  interacted positively  by covering an area very much related to the context of the OP. A video was posted that touched on the change of the direction of prayer. That change was commanded in the Quran and I said those verses were inserted in the quranic text . I said that would be easy to show .in the post in your first entry you said you found the post boring. Then to my post you said what you said . its there .
You say things like “leave [us] alone “ and “we”  and you warn other saying “let us be awrae “ that I’m more than one person and some other stuff that is weird. Look I’m not a shrink . but when someone talks to me like that I feel as though I should urge  the person to seek help. Its possible you just want to be the center of attention  , but your behavior might also be rooted in mental issues .

Cavebear I’m just me .there is no one else . and Ibn means  son . its not a name . onlky me . there is no we , no us .

@Barouch, few posts after you told me this is the best atheist forum I started to wonder if it was because they let you stay  for so long derailing posts and talking nonsense . even cavebear said that in the short time I have been here he understood more from me  than he has in all the time you have been here . do you realize how serious is that to come  for someone like cavebear ? if cavebear says that given his situation

I told you many times to desist from insulting people.  You referred to  the members of this site as peanut gallery . you called people Satan.everytiem I told you to stop.  Now you said that Christians have negative views of  Muslims  by claiming that I hate historical islam .  Do you realize what it is you have  said  Barouch ?  you just condemned all Christians . That is a very sick thing to say and to say it at your age is significant . when people get to your age and still say things like that then there is very little chance they will change .

Is that how you see Christians Barouch ?  do you have Christian neighbors? Do you let them know that you think that of them  ?  Or do you hide and smile ? what gives you the right to say that Barouch? who are you ?

The problem here you say you’re a jew. When I  went to America, when I arrived there , I hated Jews and thought they were evil based on the nurturing I received at home. If you said to me something good about jews I concluded you were working for them or a spy. My mind was such I couldn’t accept that a jews could be anything good because that would mean evil is good . but then I met this naughty  Jewish girl and she seduced me into knowing her intimately several times  . After that I no longer thought that Jews were evil. The thought was banished from my mind . I was healed from that curse so that when we went back home, me and the rest of the company I was the only one who no longer thought jews were evil. I was of teh opinion jews are not anyhting like you Barouch.

Now I’m not suggesting that could work as a cure for you seeing as thought you’re over the hill and two cents short of a six pack in that area, but hey why not try ?  got to the sex clinic and have the doctor do something about your hormone level. Then go to china and have them install batteries or something . China  price sensitive product ideal for cash strapped senior citizens.

Look I like to attribute your hateful remarks towards Christians are nothing more than the slip of the tongue. So don’t worry about it . a lot of Arabs feel as you do towards Christians . I think its  some kind of envy because Christians make you  look bad by comparison . there hundreds of Christians charities operating in the slumps of Muslims majority countries helping provide all kind of services. Christians operate in areas where the UN itself doesn’t dare operate . In particular those American die hard evangelists . I’ve seen them with my own eyes. I have seen shit that boggles the eyes . American evangelist driving trucks loaded with medicine and supplies  in ,muddy impassable terrains and through mine fields. I have seen with my own eyes nun walking into hut full of ebola infected victims. I’m eye witness of that . But not only the poor but also the wealthy Muslims  benefit immensely from Christians , from the best schools and colleges . some of  the best schools in Muslims majority countries are Christians schools and Muslims flock and compete to enter them .

No I don’t hate Muslims.  I’m not someone capable of hate . I just don’t have it in me . I can produce many Muslims who would be willing to lay their life on the line for me .  that’s why I can speak freely . I expose  history because  the  history shows Islam has caused and still cause so much pain and suffering to Muslims .

I gave an account of an expert detailing the butchering of 7 Million Muslims. Your response was a lone sentence that went oh oh just another human deal. Yes it was another human deal albeit one incriminating and condemning Islam. You don’t care about Muslims . you care about Islam .  you were upset because the account made Islam look like shit . that’s what bothered you.c’mon admit barouch .

You have been going around in this forum acting like the village clown . you make jews look bad . you say things that make Jews look bad. And you like it here because they let you do it . I mean that’s what you must have meant when you said to me its the best atheist forum.  everyone testimony about you so far says they think you’re  a joke.you don't mind becasue you refuse to fix your ways  what you’re doing is subverting by posing as the village clown. 

Now I warned you before but you failed to listen , next I am going to trample on Islam so bad you’re  gonna hurt real bad. Not because I hate Muslims but because I love them and want to free them from that evil.  You on the other hand are bent on pandering to that evil so millions more get butchered.

you're not an expert in Islam . nothing you have  said shows it . listening to quran recitals in arabic doesn't prove you are an expert . you don't even by your own admission understand  what the guy is saying .what is wrog with you. you are funny
 
hey with great admiration  . carry on .

now would you all please cool it  so i can finish  this post . go play in someone else post
 
next i want to do the 3rd expert . oh wait the  comments next

To put it simply. no matter what approach I try, your posts mostly seem like gibberish by the end.  Sorry.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!  b 1950

Offline Ibn Khaldun (OP)

Re: Is it possible to reform Atheism ?
« Reply #38 on: August 20, 2017, 01:53:50 PM »
. all i want is for you to explain that inaccurate account you gave about Wikipedia take on surat al fatiha in my introduction post .  you said you did research . you said your source is Wikipedia . you gave an account that does not remotely reflect Wikipedia take on surat al fatiha. Explain why ?

moreover you suggested that was what I wanted . Given the exchange i was having with Barouch that couldn't be it  .

if are you out to subvert and vilify my posts I don’t mind . I’m just trying to understand you

Offline Baruch

Re: Is it possible to reform Atheism ?
« Reply #39 on: August 20, 2017, 01:54:25 PM »
Now that the peanuts have had their say ...

Quote
بِسْمِ ٱللَّهِ ٱلرَّحْمَٰنِ ٱلرَّحِيمِ
ٱلْحَمْدُ لِلَّهِ رَبِّ الْعَالَمِينَ
ٱلرَّحْمَٰنِ ٱلرَّحِيمِ
مَالِكِ يَوْمِ ٱلدِّينِ
إِيَّاكَ نَعْبُدُ وَإِيَّاكَ نَسْتَعِينُ
ٱهْدِنَا الصِّرَاطَ ٱلْمُسْتَقِيمَ
صِرَاطَ ٱلَّذِينَ أَنْعَمْتَ عَلَيْهِمْ غَيْرِ
ٱلْمَغْضُوبِ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلَا ٱلضَّآلِّين


Bismillaah ar-Rahman ar-Raheem
Al hamdu lillaahi rabbil ‘alameen
Ar-Rahman ar-Raheem Maaliki yaumid Deen
Iyyaaka na’abudu wa iyyaaka nasta’een
Ihdinas siraatal mustaqeem
Siraatal ladheena an ‘amta’ alaihim
Ghairil maghduubi’ alaihim waladaaleen
Aameen

In the name of God, the infinitely Compassionate and Merciful.
Praise be to God, Lord of all the worlds.
The Compassionate, the Merciful. Ruler on the Day of Reckoning.
You alone do we worship, and You alone do we ask for help.
Guide us on the straight path,
the path of those who have received your grace;
not the path of those who have brought down wrath, nor of those who wander astray.

I find no fault in this, even though it is the basis of the Quran.  There is nothing in it that is anti-Jewish or anti-Christian.  It preaches universal, not sectarian monotheism.  Initially Muslim, Jew and Christian could worship together (in separate places in the same church) when the Muslims conquered the Middle East.  Segregated, like men and women were segregated by sex (in all three religions).  Of course fear, anger and violence eventually forced us to worship in separate facilities.  But it wasn't like that in the beginning, because outside of Yathrib, mosques hadn't been built yet.  Of course human beings being sinners, we couldn't allow shalom/salaam/pax to manifest.  The thing that the religious fear the most is the real G-d.  Atheists are not afraid.
שלום

Offline Ibn Khaldun (OP)

Re: Is it possible to reform Atheism ?
« Reply #40 on: August 20, 2017, 02:01:42 PM »
Barouch what you find as fault or not is irrelevant .you do not  speak for Islam or Muslims
 .
 what is the consensus among scholars of all schools . what do all the schools of islam teach Muslims about the sura  ? what do Muslims believe the sura says about jews and Christians

what does wikipedia whom you cited often as your source says about the sura  regarding what Muslims  believe it says about jews and christians  ? .

surely and expert in islam like you can tell me 

Offline Ibn Khaldun (OP)

Re: Is it possible to reform Atheism ?
« Reply #41 on: August 20, 2017, 02:06:32 PM »
hey barocuh lets  open a separate post for this .

in this post however you may feel free  to explain your indictment of Christians   and your  accusations about me as hating the historical I don't know what

Offline Baruch

Re: Is it possible to reform Atheism ?
« Reply #42 on: August 20, 2017, 02:08:56 PM »
Barouch what you find as fault or not is irrelevant .you do not  speak for Islam or Muslims
 .
 what is the consensus among scholars of all schools . what do all the schools of islam teach Muslims about the sura  ? what do Muslims believe the sura says about jews and Christians

what does wikipedia whom you cited often as your source says about the sura  regarding what Muslims  believe it says about jews and christians  ? .

surely and expert in islam like you can tell me

You can rely on clerical authority if you want.  But if you can't decide for yourself, then you are immature.  Also Wikipedia is a useful source, but not uncritically.

And you don't want to know what the average Likud voter thinks of Islam and Muslims.  I don't.

I already tried to open a separate post, but the litterbugs found it.
שלום

Offline Cavebear

Re: Is it possible to reform Atheism ?
« Reply #43 on: August 20, 2017, 02:18:03 PM »
You can rely on clerical authority if you want.  But if you can't decide for yourself, then you are immature.  Also Wikipedia is a useful source, but not uncritically.

And you don't want to know what the average Likud voter thinks of Islam and Muslims.  I don't.

I already tried to open a separate post, but the litterbugs found it.

I detected...
"Me man, Deity dominated the Earth, high Spirit", and I couldn't follow it after that at all.  Sorry.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!  b 1950

Offline Ibn Khaldun (OP)

Re: Is it possible to reform Atheism ?
« Reply #44 on: August 20, 2017, 02:18:29 PM »
barouch , no body is interested in what you think people should decide . you are dodging again


The question is : what do scholars of Islam covering all schools of islam past and present  plus  what do Muslims believe surat al fatiha says about Christians and jews ?

What does Wikipedia say about what Muslims scholars say about what surat al fatiha says about jews and Christians ?

C’mon say it . out with it . let's go