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Islamic reformation possible?

Started by pr126, August 02, 2017, 11:15:07 AM

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Cavebear

Quote from: SoldierofFortune on August 20, 2017, 10:25:00 AM
What do you mean and imply from Galactic Empire?

Looks like Baruch is making yet another meaningless  joke.  Just ignore him.  If we are lucky, the Troll will eventually go away.
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

SoldierofFortune

Quote from: Cavebear on August 20, 2017, 10:30:47 AM
"Islamist means who wanna implement Islam as a political ideology, who wanna apply Islam in politics."  Wow, so profound.  Look I understand that.  Replace christian, jew, and hindu for moslem, and it is all the same.  That's what they ALL want.

You seem to think the capital letters "SLM" means something.  What?  Are you a "Letterologist"?

Yes, this is the method how Arabic language derive new words/ It is understood that you dont know the Arabic even at the elementary level. But this is no problem.
Because there are more than 3000 words in use in Turkish that passed into Turkish in classical times, i know just a little bit.

For example:
JiHaD: jihad
muJaHiD: one who do jihad...

And SLM means something, yes... The jewish language and Arabic share the same Arameic origin. The 2 language resembles very much. You know -ShaLom- means SeLaM in Arabic. And shalom means -peace be upon you-

Cavebear

Interesting idea.  Is it a vowel free writing?
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

SoldierofFortune

#108
Quote from: Cavebear on August 20, 2017, 10:49:40 AM
Interesting idea.  Is it a vowel free writing?

Yes, there is no wovel in the Arabic alphabet. But this suits the Arabic perfectly.
Before the letter revolution in Turkish in 1927(we now write Turkish with the Latin alphabet) Turkish had been written with Arabic alphabet and it was very hard to understand because they didnt write the vowels...

pr126

#109
Some Muslims are trying to sell the idea that Islam means peace because the root word SLM which is also found in Salam, but Islam actually means submission.

Submission to the one deity Allah, (Hubal) which is the stone idol in the Kaaba.
Muhammad promoted it to be the god of the universe.

There is a whole lot of misinformation on this particular subject.
Another one is conflating the word El (Elohim) to make it sound like the Jewish God.
Some uninformed kufar believes all this claptrap.

The shahadah says there is no god but Allah which Muslims try to translate as there is no god but god, but the shahada does not say that.
Ilah in Arabic is god. Allah is not god, but a name of a god.
A name like Zeus, Thor, Apollo.





Baruch

Quote from: SoldierofFortune on August 20, 2017, 10:25:00 AM
What do you mean and imply from Galactic Empire?

I see Cavebear as a scifi villain ;-)
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Baruch

Quote from: Cavebear on August 20, 2017, 10:35:01 AM
Looks like Baruch is making yet another meaningless  joke.  Just ignore him.  If we are lucky, the Troll will eventually go away.

Not "the Troll" .. but "The Troll" ... I eat little children who try to cross my bridge.  Don't worry, I won't eat you, I don't like coughing up hair balls ;-))
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Cavebear

Quote from: Baruch on August 20, 2017, 11:11:41 AM
I see Cavebear as a scifi villain ;-)

Nah, "Cavebear is from 'Clan Of The Cave Bear' by Jean Auel".  You didn't know that?  Well. probably cuz it wasn't in the bible...
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Baruch

#113
Quote from: SoldierofFortune on August 20, 2017, 10:58:57 AM
Yes, there is no wovel in the Arabic alphabet. But this suits the Arabic perfectly.
Before the letter revolution in Turkish in 1927(we now write Turkish with the Latin alphabet) Turkish had been written with Arabic alphabet and it was very hard to understand because they didnt write the vowels...

Same thing in Hebrew.  Vowel points are only used to teach children correct pronunciation.  Also Aramaic today.  Israeli Hebrew in newspapers and street signs, has no vowels.  Though technically there are semi-vowels or if you prefer, semi-consonants. "Y", "W" are semi-vowels in English too.  in romanization of Hebrew, "Y" can represent (i, y, j) and "W" can represent (o, u, w).  The other usual vowels (a, e) are always implied, not written ... but in alphabet history, the gutturals (alef and ayin) evolved into the Roman (a and e).  In Ivrit (modern Hebrew) both alef and ayin are silent.  But in Arabic, they are still pronounced as guttural consonants, as they were in Biblical Hebrew and Aramaic.

Turkish is an Altaic language, not Semitic, not European, not Indo-Iranian.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Knqg9tHDWWQ
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Cavebear

Quote from: SoldierofFortune on August 20, 2017, 10:58:57 AM
Yes, there is no wovel in the Arabic alphabet. But this suits the Arabic perfectly.
Before the letter revolution in Turkish in 1927(we now write Turkish with the Latin alphabet) Turkish had been written with Arabic alphabet and it was very hard to understand because they didnt write the vowels...

So when in the desert, they said mgngtthdrst?

Yes I know better than that.  Among other things, I'm good at cognates in older to prototype languages.  Or in this case prttp lnggs...
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

SoldierofFortune

Quote from: pr126 on August 20, 2017, 11:09:02 AM
Some Muslims are trying to sell the idea that Islam means peace because the root word SLM which is also found in Salam, but Islam actually means submission.

Submission to the one deity Allah, (Hubal) which is the stone idol in the Kaaba.
Muhammad promoted it to be the god of the universe.

There is a whole lot of misinformation on this particular subject.
Another one is conflating the word El (Elohim) to make it sound like the Jewish God.
Some uninformed kufar believes all this claptrap.

The shahadah says there is no god but Allah which Muslims try to translate as there is no god but god, but the shahada does not say that.
Ilah in Arabic is god. Allah is not god, but a name of a god.
A name like Zeus, Thor, Apollo.

Shahadah also means to be witness,
How can Muslims be witnesses that there is a God that they dont see...One only can be witness after seeing.

Another translation of shahadah is that there is no ilah but el ilah(allah) or that there is no god but the god...

Baruch

Quote from: Cavebear on August 20, 2017, 11:20:14 AM
So when in the desert, they said mgngtthdrst?

Yes I know better than that.  Among other things, I'm good at cognates in older to prototype languages.  Or in this case prttp lnggs...

Arabic, Hebrew and Aramaic write the correct way, right to left ;-)  Modern Turkish is like European languages, writing left to right.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Cavebear

Quote from: Baruch on August 20, 2017, 11:24:30 AM
Arabic, Hebrew and Aramaic write the correct way, right to left ;-)  Modern Turkish is like European languages, writing left to right.

Well, ox-plow is the sensible way.  A for the ox, after all...
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!

Baruch

#118
Quote from: SoldierofFortune on August 20, 2017, 11:22:48 AM
Shahadah also means to be witness,
How can Muslims be witnesses that there is a God that they dont see...One only can be witness after seeing.

Another translation of shahadah is that there is no ilah but el ilah(allah) or that there is no god but the god...

Theists see in their "mind's eye".  Or "evil eye" if you prefer ;-)

Islam specifically finds G-d in the Quran ... as recited, not as written.  That is why the primary religious obligation is to recite ... and the recitation doesn't quite match the written form ... there are small changes in the written form, to accommodate spelling.  Originally the Quran wasn't written with vowels either ... but the Arabs quickly added vowel points (borrowed from the Aramaic system) so that learners could recite the same way.  The point isn't to read the Quran it is to internalize it thru memory.  The most revered Muslims are those who literally don't say anything, unless it is a cribbed quotation from the Quran.  Then they are literally speaking for Allah.  All their vocabulary is limited to the Quran.

This was partly derived from an old Jewish custom, memorizing the Psalms.  The Quran is a kind of Psalm book.  Some Christians used to to this also, but religion has been inherited by lazy people.  Unless you internalize the religion, into your body, emotions, thoughts and identity (spirit) ... you aren't really experiencing the religion.  For that ... I have to admire serious Muslims.  Of course, taking in a complete meme system, non-critically .. is what produces Salafists.  If Jews still did that ... we would be completely incompatible with Gentiles ... as Salafists are with Infidels.  Hasidic Jews in upstate NY ... are incompatible that way, with any other society.

Central Arabia (Hejaz) was an aural culture.  It was literate to the North (Nabatean) and to the South (Sabaic).  So Classical Islam is a culture that hears G-d, not see G-d.  This is part of the prohibition against graven images.  Old Judaism was the same, aural, with no graven images (at least in the idealization of it).  Books were only possessed by the authorities and the wealthy.  Stained-glass windows, icons and holy statues were used ... because Christianity was as much visual as aural.  This separates them from the other two Abrahamic religions.  Originally Buddhism wasn't visual either, and pre-Constantinian Christianity wasn't.  Buddhists and Hindus learned of statues from the Greeks of Alexander's time.  Christians who were Greco-Roman, already knew about statues when they were still pagans.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Cavebear

Quote from: Baruch on August 20, 2017, 11:30:41 AM
Theists see in their "mind's eye".  Or "evil eye" if you prefer ;-)

Islam specifically finds G-d in the Quran ... as recited, not as written.  That is why the primary religious obligation is to recite ... and the recitation doesn't quite match the written form ... there are small changes in the written form, to accommodate spelling.  Originally the Quran wasn't written with vowels either ... but the Arabs quickly added vowel points (borrowed from the Aramaic system) so that learners could recite the same way.  The point isn't to read the Quran it is to internalize it thru memory.  The most revered Muslims are those who literally don't say anything, unless it is a cribbed quotation from the Quran.  Then they are literally speaking for Allah.  All their vocabulary is limited to the Quran.



This was partly derived from an old Jewish custom, memorizing the Psalms.  The Quran is a kind of Psalm book.  Some Christians used to to this also, but religion has been inherited by lazy people.  Unless you internalize the religion, into your body, emotions, thoughts and identity (spirit) ... you aren't really experiencing the religion.  For that ... I have to admire serious Muslims.  Of course, taking in a complete meme system, non-critically .. is what produces Salafists.  If Jews still did that ... we would be completely incompatible with Gentiles ... as Salafists are with Infidels.  Hasidic Jews in upstate NY ... are incompatible that way, with any other society.

One of the newer inventions of writing were vowel symbols. They always existed in speech, of course, but were considered parts of consonants.  It seems the Greeks did that leap into writing, but it was late (rltvl spkng).
Atheist born, atheist bred.  And when I die, atheist dead!