Islamic reformation possible?

[Shiranu]

Islam does not have such a distinction...

Try telling that to the various royal families, dictators, secular states and terrorist groups spread across the Islamic world...

[Cavebear]

The West had a one up on reformation because of the distinction between Church and State.  Not separation, that came later, but separation had its roots in distinction.

To put it simply, the religious and secular authorities were not the same person.  They relied on each other in a very incestuous relationship, and the "fight" between them that litters the history books was over who was to be senior partner, but they both agreed that both were separate and both were necessary.

That distinction eventually proved to be the wedge that divided them during first the protestant reformation and then later the age of enlightenment.

Islam does not have such a distinction, and as such needs to learn it from the West if they are to reform in the manner discussed in this thread.

Oh but the Church and State WERE partners in ruling all the lands of Europe after the Romans got all worn out.  They loved each other, trading money, influence, titles and all that.  Where to you think the Holy Roman Empire came from in the 800s to the 13th century...?

[Baruch]

Oh but the Church and State WERE partners in ruling all the lands of Europe after the Romans got all worn out.  They loved each other, trading money, influence, titles and all that.  Where to you think the Holy Roman Empire came from in the 800s to the 13th century...?

And that is why the HRE aka Germany is still a problem ;-)

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Oh but the Church and State WERE partners in ruling all the lands of Europe after the Romans got all worn out.  They loved each other, trading money, influence, titles and all that.  Where to you think the Holy Roman Empire came from in the 800s to the 13th century...?

I agree they were partners, but partners implies two parties which was my point.

Even though the Muslim countries with their royal families aren't priest-kings, there is a difference even yet.  The medieval peasant was subject to church law and secular law, but they were distinct and separate law.  In many Muslim majority countries Sharia law is part of the law of the government even under a monarch.  Some dictators dispense with it.  The democracies struggle with it but are able to struggle because the distinction between church and state is something they are learning.

[Cavebear]

I agree they were partners, but partners implies two parties which was my point.

Even though the Muslim countries with their royal families aren't priest-kings, there is a difference even yet.  The medieval peasant was subject to church law and secular law, but they were distinct and separate law.  In many Muslim majority countries Sharia law is part of the law of the government even under a monarch.  Some dictators dispense with it.  The democracies struggle with it but are able to struggle because the distinction between church and state is something they are learning.

Would you care to describe any Islamist nation that could be called a "democracy"?  They are theocracies AND dictorships.  And monarchies are dictatorships...

[pr126]

I do not like the term Islamist.
Muslim countries yes. Or Islamic countries.

Islamist is an invented word. About as valid as Christianist.

[Cavebear]

I do not like the term Islamist.
Muslim countries yes. Or Islamic countries.

Islamist is an invented word. About as valid as Christianist.

"Islamist",  followers of Islam".  Not being "Christian", I would understand "Christianist" without argument.  I understand "Christian" or "Christianist" as a follower of "Christ".  So you are saying a "Muslim" is a follower of "Mus"?  The liguistics get hairy.

Do you want to make a big "hairy" deal over "Islamic" vs "Islamist". 

And "mus" is a mouse...  LOL!

[pr126]

No, I think it is wrong.
There is no Muslim who would call himself an Islamist. A follower of Islam is a Muslim.

The word Islamist is used to distance Muslim terrorism from Islam. Another word used is Islamism.

Note that politicians repeatedly say that “those terrorist are perverting the true peaceful faith, Islam is peace” , therefore they are Islamist, not true Muslims, extremist, nothing to do with Islam, ad nauseam.

Notice that not one politician, media etc will ever say that it is the religion, it is Islam that drive Muslims to jihad. Not once.

Islam is peace. No it is not. Islam is a religion of war. Always have been.
Nothing to do with fancy semantics.

[Cavebear]

No, I think it is wrong.
There is no Muslim who would call himself an Islamist. A follower of Islam is a Muslim.

The word Islamist is used to distance Muslim terrorism from Islam. Another word used is Islamism.

Note that politicians repeatedly say that “those terrorist are perverting the true peaceful faith, Islam is peace” , therefore they are Islamist, not true Muslims, extremist, nothing to do with Islam, ad nauseam.

Notice that not one politician, media etc will ever say that it is the religion, it is Islam that drive Muslims to jihad. Not once.

Islam is peace. No it is not. Islam is a religion of war. Always have been.
Nothing to do with fancy semantics.

I really don't care about Islam, Islamist, Moslem, Muslim, Mohammdem, Mohammdism, or Mohammadist, etc.  I have seen all used, all considerred "correct" all considered "incorrect, and I really don't care.  Some adherents have liked all, none, or one term at some times. 

I DON'T CARE!  If they all agree on a term someday, I will try to use it. 

I equally really don't give a crap whether followers of Jesus call themselves Christians, Protestants, Catholics, Orthodox or Coptics. 

I really don't care whether the Old Testament followers call themselves Jews, Jewish, Judaists or anything else.

They are all primitive superstitions idiots to me!  I'll be glad to use any term they all agree on among themselves so long as they announce it and keep it consistent.

Until then, don't be a definitional pain in the ass.

[pr126]

You may not care about Islam, but Islam cares about you. They are deadly serious about you.

[Cavebear]

You may not care about Islam, but Islam cares about you. They are deadly serious about you.

I am more deadly serious about them then they may realize as well.  I would like to see every one of them vanish from the face of the Earth.  As equally as much as an other damn fool theism, though. 

[Baruch]

I am more deadly serious about them then they may realize as well.  I would like to see every one of them vanish from the face of the Earth.  As equally as much as an other damn fool theism, though.

Maybe when the Galactic Senate makes you Emperor ...

[SoldierofFortune]

"Islamist",  followers of Islam".  Not being "Christian", I would understand "Christianist" without argument.  I understand "Christian" or "Christianist" as a follower of "Christ".  So you are saying a "Muslim" is a follower of "Mus"?  The liguistics get hairy.

Do you want to make a big "hairy" deal over "Islamic" vs "Islamist". 

And "mus" is a mouse...  LOL!

Islamist doesnt just mean muSLiM or follower of iSLaM(same etymology, look at the consonants, Arabic word structure)
But at the same time Islamist means who wanna implement Islam as a political ideology, who wanna apply Islam in politics.
From the point of political terminology...

[SoldierofFortune]

Maybe when the Galactic Senate makes you Emperor ...

What do you mean and imply from Galactic Empire?

[Cavebear]

Islamist doesnt just mean muSLiM or follower of iSLaM(same etymology, look at the consonants, Arabic word structure)
But at the same time Islamist means who wanna implement Islam as a political ideology, who wanna apply Islam in politics.
From the point of political terminology...

"Islamist means who wanna implement Islam as a political ideology, who wanna apply Islam in politics."  Wow, so profound.  Look I understand that.  Replace christian, jew, and hindu for moslem, and it is all the same.  That's what they ALL want.

You seem to think the capital letters "SLM" means something.  What?  Are you a "Letterologist"?