Islamic reformation possible?

[Baruch]

@ Munch…….You’re being raciest. My dog has a religion. He prays everyday.

I think a little humility is called for on your part. You should go find a plant and get down on your knees and talk to it .it will be good for you. Trust me on that .

Yes there will be religion after you’re gone .

Render to Caesar  what belongs to Caesar ….. that’s one thing.

There was always a healthy detachment in Europe. The people owed their allegiance to the king more so than the pope. it was kings and their subjects

in the Islamic empire , the sultan sent a stranger to rule any given people. one of his inner circle guys . the people in the area hated the guy guts .

it was not a theocracy in the Islamic empire. The Sultan was always on top. If the ulema gave him a hard time he withheld the money from the awqaf . if they behaved and did his bidding he released the money

. what is taking place in Iran is an anomaly. Welliyat  al Faqih or  Velliyat  al faqih .not good .spells big trouble. the iranian regime must be removed .

I was talking reform of mind not religion. Read again please. I’ll appreciate if you don’t put words in my mouth again. I forgive you. Jesus says to forgive you. I’m good catholic person. Go much you are forgiven . I pardon  thee.

you may call me silly. it is a pleasure to be insulted by someone like you.

"the iranian regime must be removed" ... can't stand a competitive Vatican?  Qom in Iran is the Shiite Vatican.  Iranians are Persians not Arabs.  They have always hated each other.  Zoroastrians had a state religion in Persia, almost 100 years before Constantine (so it wasn't entirely new).  And a great number of Jews used to live in Persia, and many Persians converted to Christianity before the Muslim conquest there.  So they had a prior-art relationship with formal clergy.  This is why they have ayatollahs not imams.

[Munch]

@ Munch…….You’re being raciest.

Can't be racist if I like cocks of every color.

unless you do mean raciest, implying I'm being suggestive or risqué. Which is true.

[Ibn Khaldun]

Gentlemen , this thread is about reform of Islam . lets not derail it .   
Last post here

did I say universes or god  or purpose or reason for living ? I said Islam would lose its reason to exist and revert to the cult it came from if it were  to be reformed . and I gave an example , a current one .i can give  moré . so reason for being   is because  of  it being different . Cancel that difference and Islam is gone. and anyway that’s how to it began. When  Mohammed ( not his real name) started out he pitched himself  as second coming of Jesus .he was going around saying he is Jesus come back from the hereafter .

Then I said ebola . it kills you because you are not able to mutate it into a harmless form , harmless to you .that’s the reason. love  or hate life,  Universe cares or doesn’t got nothing to do with it .what I was saying was in response to unbeliever . I was pointing out to him that  is what  decides , an example of  what , decides his  existence . Taken to the limit I was predicting   the extinction of mankind by such natural forces and religion remains because my dog wailed and wailed when his female partner got killed in car accident . he laid on her grave barking for days . animals , insects have religion.   Better than people religion too.

People don’t need a reason to live.   not unless we’re talking mental issues/situation. What people need is motivation to die . you have to convince them to die  . the jihadist says he loves death more than you love life . he loves it . that’s what I’m talking about .nurture. you start when the child is young . you condition him from very young so he becomes  receptive to death . you raise him so he has the right sort of mind to enter into a sympathetic relationship with death. You twist his intellectual resources  so  they resonate positively  when presented with the prospect of annihilation .

this is what does it . not choice. . what choice ? you think you had a choice ? if left to your devices you would have been  a feral child. Or Muslim. then you would be a jihadist maybe

How do you deal with that ?

One example, Alice auma , the catholic warrior priestess .her army armed with sticks and stones fought three pitched  battles against armies armed with modern weapons and routed them . They sang King  David psalms  as they marched  and fought ……though I walk through  the valley of death I fear no evil….the Lord is my staff   â€¦ . great action  . really . wish I was there .  she was defeated eventually  because an European power aided the other side . they opened up on her with mobile artillery ,tanks ,  mortar , rockets , mounted canons, mounted dushkas .  the whole works  . still she marched  with her army  singing bible psalms  carrying their bibles as they rushed forward to engage the enemy . . .

Again further north, cattle herders animist , quasi Christianized, natural worriers further trained by the Israelis met the jihadist on the battle fields and decimated them  . today the African animist sings proudly….. ask the grass land  what became of the jihadists .The hyenas ate their corpses.

He  sees  myself as part of something bigger than himself , his people . his life or his death is relevant only in that context . you think you’re the measure of things .

I can move my mind from one State to the other freely . I just happen to be one of those who do not get hard wired. I observed that in myself .people get upset with me . people prefer routine .they’re about routine.  that’s how the lion gets them . eats them . they complain that I have said so and so. I tell them that was yesterday , today I’m Buddhist . I go to the temple sit facing the wall and go qu qu raa rra ra . really get into the thing. Look you just have to wait till I feel like being an atheist . right now I’m enjoying being catholic . I’m Catholic . `

hey you want tot ake me to task , open a post . but look don't go crying foul when I trample on you .

@Brauch , The Sultan is not on top in Iran. The clergy are . check the history  further. Islam is ruled jointly with Sultan and ulema (clergy)with the Sultan on top. I calculate a high probability if Iran continues the way it there is going to be a calamity . you have to remove the ulema from the top and return the Sultan back on top. Qatar also another  problem . Qardawie is in charge

[Ibn Khaldun]

@Munch , you female ? inquiring minds want to know 

[Munch]

@Munch , you female ? inquiring minds want to know

this answer your question?

[Mike Cl]

Gentlemen , this thread is about reform of Islam . lets not derail it .   

Thank god!  At last!  The post monitor has arrived!

[Baruch]

"@Brauch , The Sultan is not on top in Iran. The clergy are . check the history  further. Islam is ruled jointly with Sultan and ulema (clergy)with the Sultan on top. I calculate a high probability if Iran continues the way it there is going to be a calamity . you have to remove the ulema from the top and return the Sultan back on top. Qatar also another  problem . Qardawie is in charge"

Didn't say different.  The Shah isn't on top in Iran, the Ayatollahs are.  Hence Vatican (as in Papal States prior to 1870).  There are kings on top in Sunni lands ... more Protestant, like Kaiser of Germany in charge of Lutherans, but the Lutheran pastors don't rule, he does.

I think you aren't correlating your Catholicism with parallels elsewhere.  Not that you have to.  Like you said, you are constantly modulating in your moods.

[Cavebear]

Islamic reformation is possible.  Most religions calm down in time.

But I will say that Islamist religions come from hard places and those take longer.

[Ibn Khaldun]

@Munch, is that a yes or no . hey these days I demand to hear a yes or a no. one  time  i was riding my bike and I see this really pretty sexy girl  , so i pull over and i talk to her the talk and shit and we end  up at  the motel . she takes off her clothes and she has a dick. first time for me to see that shit  . I jump up and run screaming  leaving the booze and drugs on the bed .  I thought something went wrong with  my head. what the hell that dealer gave me i was thinking . help me please as I struggled   to put back my pants and shoes running on one leg on teh sidewalk and street and falling down and getting up. she got a dick . i swear to allah she has a dick . go look if you don't believe me . cultural  education

@Brauch, here is what I will do for you . I will do a couple of articles on Sharia  Law and the history surrounding what you call sunni and Shiite . Sharia Law because sharia is Islam in its totality  you could argue .Then we can  phrase the questions such that they are agreeable and acceptable to both of us . then we furnish the answers to those questions such that the answers are agreeable and acceptable to us . then we can begin to dispute those answers as a matter of fact or rule .

I think that’s the better way to resolve all that equivalency stuff  that obscure  truth such as State from state differ, religion from religion differ ,etc. Infact I’m of the opinion that Christianity and Judaism are two different religions  of  different paradigms and world view . I mean  Christianity and Judaism are different let alone Islam

But that should be done someplace else. and if you want to that is  . the work is going to be tedious . stuff like that is best done by group of people  , think tanks sort of thing . moreover  the method requires highly practiced hands  and even then it is doubtful if we  can attain bona fide states of disagreements or agreements . I’ve watched recognized intellectual powerhouses get mired  trying to join minds. . look not even in court you can get anywhere really . they keep turning over each other  findings .   

Now concerning the reformation of Islam , I claim that it  is not possible . I further claim that religion can not be reformed . what can be reformed is the person. In effect I’m taking the position of a critic .

I  begin by  first by turning   the attention of the illustrious members to something of vital importance. As I’m sure you all know that what happened to  Hamid  abed Al  Samad , suggests  there is  an issue regarding freedom of speech when it comes to Islam . Mr. Al Samad book titled  “Islamic fascism”  was first published and released in Germany where upon it caused an uproar  which in turn  attracted the attention of publishers  from other countries . the Book was translated to a bunch of languages, English , Korean , Swedish ,etc.  Following that the author was approached by a French publisher who expressed an interest in publishing the book for distribution in France . The deal was made and the book was translated to French  .  before it went to the printing press Charlie Hebdo happened and the publisher held back waiting for things to calm down some . Then the two other terrorist acts followed , the last being  the one  where  people got run over by the truck by a Muslim terrorist  . the publisher then informed the author that he has decided not to go ahead with the publishing expressing fear that he can’t  protect his employees and whatnot . news spread among the circle of that trade , reaching another publisher who disdaining  the sort of fear that clamps down  on freedom of speech called the author and informed him that he would be glad to publish his book and the book got published accompanied by lots of congratulations from active ex Muslim org and civil rights org.

Today if you go to a book exhibition in Muslims majority countries you will not fail to notice that some 80% of publications are religious all having being reviewed and approved  first  by the respective religious authority in that country . moreover there are dozens of TV channels funded by the State in those countries reinforcing and peddling Islamic hate message .by contrast a single TV channel manned by ex Muslims was banned from broadcasting on Nile Sat .
I will continue   

[Baruch]

"I jump up and run screaming  leaving" ... there you have it.  Real men compare dick sizes.  Were you afraid yours was smaller? (rhetorical question).

Some people are "stuck on phonics" and you are "stuck on Sunnism".  Actually, the Sufis are the real Muslims, neither Sunni nor Shia are ... though on a technicality you could count the Sufis as Shia (and some in fact are, modern Iran was founded 500 years ago by Shia Sufis in Tabriz) because they are a kind of dissent.  Like Christians calling anyone atheist who disagree with them.

Comparing "theology" sizes?  Sorry, nobody here would be interested in that kind of circle jerk ;-)  And yes, theocratic control of publication is a very old thing ... often practiced in most cultures ... and only got out of hand because the Catholic Church censors didn't do their job burning all the portable printing presses (circa 1500s).  In the Soviet Union, this was called "samizdat" and owning a typewriter was a crime.

[Mike Cl]

@Munch,

I will continue   

Why????????????????

[Cavebear]

Why????????????????

Because he wants to push fantasies on us?

[Ibn Khaldun]

@Munch, where I come  from it is what not why .stop being so  ethnocentric .  I will explain later on if you insist . just hang in there for now . persevere .

@Baruch. I’m different culture . I really don’t care what the woman thinks about my dick size be it big or small. I don’t have those ego issues. I don’t even believe in sexual fulfillment .sex is pleasure of short duration . I’m more procreation oriented . the women where I come from are too. but in western company  I do frame my mind such that I care what the woman thinks and get into the act . . but I can also easily deframe my mind anytime I want . but know this the second I step out the front door and its women women women all over me . sometimes I come home so exasperated I  take off my jacket and fling at  the wall and fall flat on my back on the floor .  I do not go for love me you and love you  me  BS. I always tell my wife not to come at me with that BS real love . I prefer pretend love .i tell her do not love me , I had a mother  plus a whole harem that loved me  already more than she ever have or can  .I telol her to act like you do love me  . do like Myurel street in the movies . movie love is more interesting .  . c’mon c’mon go back and change the silly  stuff you have  on. Did I say I want to be loved today ? ask me first if I want to be.  you have a serious problem in the west , people just go ahead and love you without asking if you are okay with it . stuff is invasion of privacy , not to mention smothering . they should include a clause in the universal human rights declaration about that , violation of human rights by love, war crime .

Thank you for trying .Also I think it is high time I return the compliment. you said I was creative I say you’re the god of creativity .I enjoyed reading your response . was kind of difficult though keeping a straight face .you’re funny .
Think of different paradigms and world views as formulas and sub formulas   . you plug in  the numbers and you get  different result .
Example :  Both formulas forbade printing of  their holy texts . Plug in the numbers in one  , you get the bible . but with the other formula you get a Quran that is a version of some fifty others , all differing from each of  other . Count the number of suras , figure on  an average of three differences in each sura and multiply by number of suras and you get thousand of differences . according to my own count I have over ten thousand differences when I make room for long suras like Al Baqarah.an d lets not factor  in the nature and implication of differences. But know this today Qurans that are authorized in some Muslim majority countries are banned in some of the others .
But keep on trying . I commend you for that . I really do .you can stay . you know Baruch in the bar there are  guys like you who talk like you . The predators are drunk and get ideas. I look at them and I say to them , leave him alone . he can talk. Don’t kill him. Talk talk . you can talk. .
I would like to continue with the recent history . I mentioned the situation of Hamid abed al Samad . the general idea is to continue back wards till you get to Mutazzla . so I’m talking 1400 years of failed attempts at reformation , or renewal  of religious speech or tajdeed , the terms are many but meaning is one which is reformation. But first I would like to rephrase the question .

is it possible to fix that  huge confounding stacked mix called Islam ,starting with the text of the quran , through the sira and al Haddith and schools , theologians , exegesis ?

  what scholars witness  are recognized and highly esteemed Sheikhs and ulema  stumbling aimlessly  without success  in their writings and sermons and efforts . some say the problem is Ibn Taymiah , others Al Bukhari and others yet  say  the problem is in Mohammed Abed Al Wahab or it’s the whole haddith , some even struck off all the hate suras and verses in the quran .  Regimes such as Egypt’s attempting to streamline Friday sermons , revising  school curriculum  . in short solutions that have been tried over and over again through the centuries and never worked .
 
are  those solutions called for  ? upheaval social  upheaval all over

why I’m doing that ? because I don’t want people to think I’m conceited westerner who presumes he can tell people how to fix their problem based on his own irrelevant but imagined not to be  historical experience, Christianity did this and had this too  and this and that  and all Muslims have to do is do like us . if I ever become a Muslim again I will find that sort of thing unbearable  .,irrelevant and clueless . good for you I’m presently catholic. But then I know you don’t mean it that way . you’re just programmed to think that way culturally . you’re being you and the other thing , keep wondering

She is sitting in the kitchen pretending she is reading the paper. Silent treatment crab .i got to go say I’m sorry  . or she is not going to make me dinner. Women can cook, right . you have to give credit where credit goes. . I make a sandwich, she makes one  from same ingredients too, but hers taste million times better . I really can’t figure it out. Is that the same thing for you to? . Maybe women secret something that goes into the sandwich that make them taste better .invisible stuff. i love you , you love me ,we're happy family .

@Munch I will continue later on .sorry Munch . look use your right hand to scratch your right ear  . as your advisor I irecommend ...

[Cavebear]

@Munch, where I come  from it is what not why .stop being so  ethnocentric .  I will explain later on if you insist . just hang in there for now . persevere .

@Baruch. I’m different culture . I really don’t care what the woman thinks about my dick size be it big or small. I don’t have those ego issues. I don’t even believe in sexual fulfillment .sex is pleasure of short duration . I’m more procreation oriented . the women where I come from are too. but in western company  I do frame my mind such that I care what the woman thinks and get into the act . . but I can also easily deframe my mind anytime I want . but know this the second I step out the front door and its women women women all over me . sometimes I come home so exasperated I  take off my jacket and fling at  the wall and fall flat on my back on the floor .

deleted

You don't even realize how sad you sound... 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

The West had a one up on reformation because of the distinction between Church and State.  Not separation, that came later, but separation had its roots in distinction.

To put it simply, the religious and secular authorities were not the same person.  They relied on each other in a very incestuous relationship, and the "fight" between them that litters the history books was over who was to be senior partner, but they both agreed that both were separate and both were necessary.

That distinction eventually proved to be the wedge that divided them during first the protestant reformation and then later the age of enlightenment.

Islam does not have such a distinction, and as such needs to learn it from the West if they are to reform in the manner discussed in this thread.